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Save money by deducting 6 weeks pay...

Discussion in 'Education news' started by OneLooseCrank, Feb 11, 2020.

  1. OneLooseCrank

    OneLooseCrank Occasional commenter

    Based on the following article:
    https://www.tes.com/news/save-not-paying-staff-6-weeks-year-says-dfe

    Have I misunderstood how our salary works? We agree a salary at point of contract which represents the work done and only the work done. I, as a teacher, am not payed for the weeks that I am not at work and so cannot have 6 weeks deducted from my salary. In this sense, our teaching contracts represents a rather higher hourly rate than we probably recognise because the salary, whilst being split equally across 12 monthly instalments, represents less contact-time than an ordinary 9-5er.
    Or are the contract of support staff not thought of in the same way as the teaching staff? The article implies that it's only support staff that this has impacted but I apply the same logic that is applied to a teaching contract - that the salary already has deducted from it the weeks that go unworked.
     
  2. Morninglover

    Morninglover Star commenter

    In my experience many admin staff (and some teachers, of course) are expected to work in school during the holidays (e/g examination results days). Under these suggestions they might well choose to say 'not available'!
     
  3. OneLooseCrank

    OneLooseCrank Occasional commenter

    There are of course directed time days... Maybe the school counts results days as directed time? But surely you can't deduct 6 weeks from anyone because of the pro rata nature of educating salaries
     
  4. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    Yes you have misunderstood how teaching salaries in England work. Teachers' pay is an annual salary that accrues daily over all 365 days of the year so teachers are paid at the same rate for holidays as for term time. (See the Supreme Court decision in Hartley v King Edward VI College [2017] UKSC 39 that confirmed this.) It has nothing to do with directed time.

    Support staff are often paid for term term only. The cost saving referred to in the link was in relation to office staff who were moved from an annual contract to a term time only contract.
     
  5. Morninglover

    Morninglover Star commenter


    No such thing as 'directed time days' when I was working - only the 190 teaching +5 INSET days. 1265 directed time hours - but can only be used during the 195 days.
     
    agathamorse likes this.
  6. afterdark

    afterdark Lead commenter

    This what you Tories voted for....

    MAT, so called, leaders on 6 figure salaries and the government is suggesting that admin staff should be made to forgo 6 weeks worth of money so schools can save money.
     
    ajrowing and OneLooseCrank like this.
  7. OneLooseCrank

    OneLooseCrank Occasional commenter

    ...Mind... Blown...
    https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=d0b4ced6-0245-4f74-a677-4d2cab5d4594

    So... as you are better versed on this than me, does this mean that it is wrong to describe our salary as Pro Rata? Because it is not a salary of days fewer than 365, split into 12 payments - rather it is a salary of 365 days split into 12 payments (assuming that this is a state school and not an academy with a funny contract)?
     
  8. Catgirl1964

    Catgirl1964 Established commenter

    Nearly all support staff, unless they are contracted to work a set number of days in school holidays, are only paid for term time. That equates to 38 weeks when school is open to students, 1 week for Inset days if support staff are required to attend and an allowance of about 5 weeks’ holiday pay, most of which schools are legally obliged to pay. This totals 44 to 46 weeks paid on a pro rata basis. Complicated formulas are used to work out pay and lots of support staff such as TAs work less than the standard 37 hour working week upon which the pay is based. This means that many support staffs’ annual salary is only about £10 to £15k. To compound it all, school employees are not allowed to claim out of work benefits for those unpaid weeks about which they have no choice. A pretty bum deal all round!
    The article in question is about admin staff who were previously paid for all 52 weeks being forced to accept term time only contracts which amounts to an enforced pay cut.
     
  9. OneLooseCrank

    OneLooseCrank Occasional commenter

    I just looked into the DfE report, the SMRA actually advised Chapeltown Academy to become a MAT... so they don't have a 6 figure salary MAT leader at the moment... and to reduce the number of SLT. The SMRA made the recommendations because the school is underfunded, not because its expenditure on leaders is too high. It also recommended that contact time between teacher and student is increased so that teachers have less down time yet do more work...
    Now normally, I'd jump at the chance to shove one to the Tories... but this might not be the best flag-bearer of their ineptitude...
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
    Pomza likes this.
  10. OneLooseCrank

    OneLooseCrank Occasional commenter

    I thought this might be the case, that the SMRA recommendations just bring their admin staff into line with what other schools are doing. I think this is a real tragedy; I see pay over the weeks not worked as a retainer to keep you from looking for jobs that do pay all year round. You can't just get another job for one week of half term, especially when that week sees over a bank holiday (I assuming then that whilst all other full timers are getting their paid day of bank holiday, this is another loss being taken by education admin staffers) to make up a full pay scale. And the assumption that we take on the role because of the privilege of the holidays is straw-man, and just victim blaming really.
    Looking at the Hartley vs King Edward College case, part of the crux was that teachers have the clause which requires them to work above and beyond directed time, undirected time, which admin staff won't have.
    Still. Pay them. And fund education properly.
     
  11. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    Correct. An annual/365 day salary paid in 12 monthly installments. (Academies are state schools and I've never heard of one that didn't employ its permanent teaching staff on annual contracts, same as LA schools.)
     
  12. phlogiston

    phlogiston Star commenter

    But the unions need to be alert to the risk of a school trying to do this to teachers.
    Some science technicians have had pay based on 38weeks for decades.
     
  13. jcstev

    jcstev New commenter

    When I went on strike (as a teacher in a sixth form college) I lost 1/195th of my salary (not 1/365th), on the basis that I was paid for 195 days work, with the payments spread over 12 months.
     
    Morninglover likes this.
  14. OneLooseCrank

    OneLooseCrank Occasional commenter

    The court case suggests then that you're owed money because according to the supreme Court, the teachers' contractual clause that working above and beyond the number of directed hours is a requirement means the 195 days can't be used as a guide of work owed remuneration for, and the they should have only taken 1/365th...
     
    install likes this.
  15. OneLooseCrank

    OneLooseCrank Occasional commenter

    One problem with this ruling however is that schools can now surely assign teachers work to do over the holiday periods, given that contracts are for 365 days (less statutory holiday)... When people used to use the 'holidays' as justification that teachers didn't deserve more money, I world return that we aren't paid for those holidays. I guess that argument is now false...
     
  16. R13

    R13 Occasional commenter

    In my experience 'that ship has sailed'. By which I mean that support staff were largely moved to term time contracts 5 to 10 years ago. Personally I agree with any suggestion that says support staff are underpaid - but I would see the answer to this is a significant hourly pay rise (Funded of course!!) Classroom assistants I know are typically working 25 to 30 hours a week, which is quite literally half the weekly hours of most teachers I have worked with . . . . that's one of the reasons why teachers need the paid holidays. Assistants should get a much better hourly wage so they don't have to look for a second job BUT they could work in child care roles for play schemes etc. in the school holidays
     
    OneLooseCrank likes this.
  17. moscowbore

    moscowbore Star commenter

    MATs will be slavering over this. The day will come, soon I predict, when MATs effectively put teachers on zero hours contracts during term time only.
     
  18. Morninglover

    Morninglover Star commenter


    I enquired about a job in an FE college about 15 years ago, and (when I got to the bottom of the 'offer') it turned out it wasn't far removed from what we now (but not then, as far as I remember) call a 'zero hours' contract.

    I didn't proceed with an application!
     
  19. OneLooseCrank

    OneLooseCrank Occasional commenter

    I see where you're coming from, but the unions are too strong I think for this to ever happen. And I think MATs won't want the publicity to draw attention to their practises.
     
  20. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    That's the exact circumstances of the Hartley case in the Supreme Court in 2017 linked earlier and the court ruled that the deduction should be 1/365th. The argument your college put to you was the same as the college put to the Supreme Court in Hartley and court ruled they were wrong. That was not a valid reason to deduct 1/195th.

    Unless your contract of employment expressly stated that the deduction would be 1/195th. Hartley's contract didn't.

    Incidentally in schools using national Conditions of Service (the 'Burgundy Book') the deduction has always been 1/365th because the Burgundy Book says that.
     
    strawbs likes this.

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