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SATs results v teacher assessment

Discussion in 'Primary' started by pipstrelle, Jul 15, 2011.

  1. So I had a little lad in my class who's worked hard all year and, in May, I teacher assessed him at Level 4A across the board - accurately, I think, plenty of APP and other evidence to back it up. Elements of Level 5, but certainly still a 4A. Practice papers mainly 4As - one or two 4Bs and one or two 5Cs. Shared this with him, with his mum, with HT, etc, etc. All seemed OK with this - consistent with good progress, etc, etc. Lovely.
    SATs results came through this week and he got 4As and 5Cs across the board (couple of marks in it, one side or the other of the borderline) Brilliant. I was thrilled; thought that they would be too.
    Mum tells me that he is "disappointed" in my teacher assessments because I gave him 4s and he got 5s in some of the tests. Apparently he feels that I haven't fully appreciated how hard he's worked and what he's achieved.
    Feel a bit deflated to be honest. Anyone else had this?
  2. markuss

    markuss Occasional commenter

    Never. But then..
    I never made out the NCTs were anything else.
    Always said NCTs were a different type of assessment from TA and could well give a different result.
    Always said that legally, NCT and TA were 50-50 but you could tell why my 50% was more likely to be valid if there were differences.
    Never even mentioned sub levels or NCT marks.

    Don't suppose you'd be allowed to work like that, even if you wanted to, though! An, I guess, you won't be on your own in this situation.

  3. lrw22

    lrw22 Established commenter

    I don't think the little boy will be feeling that you haven't fully appreciated how hard he's worked. It's more than likely she's put this thought into his head. Why couldn't she just say, "Well done you've worked so hard you've done even better than we all thought you would!" Can't she just get on with celebrating his achievements!
  4. markuss

    markuss Occasional commenter

    (There aren't any as, b, cs, in NCTs for childen/parents to be bothered about, are there?)
  5. I said that. At the parents' evening explaining about how the test week worked. She was there. Made copious notes.

    Yup, said that too. Also ad nauseam to the kids. In fact the little lad in question told me three weeks ago that he felt he was working at a good level 4 and sometimes a level 5. I agreed absolutely. And told him how good that was.

    During the runup to the tests we do knock off a few practice papers - this child's marks were always within one or two of the borderline, one side of the other. Usually 4As but yes, he did aspire to a 5C.

    I really hope I haven't. I've always tried to keep it all in perspective and encouraged kids and parents alike to do the same. Ironically I nearly did share the marks with this mother today: the child was one mark over the borderline for one subject and actually on the borderline for another.
  6. Not on the mark sheet, no. This parent didn't like that. Of course they do get sublevels at KS1.

    (Our CVA data at school does seem to take account of it at both key stages, though.)
  7. I am interested in the difference between teacher predictions and actual outcomes since the NUT claims that the accuracy of teacher assessments make the tests unnecessary.
    These results from a Fleetwod school in my research may be of interest to some in the respect.

    Level 2/3 Level 4 Level 5 Pass rate
    Predicted in Sept 2010 48% 40% 12% 52%
    Actual results July 2011 6% 52% 42% 94%

  8. Are the NUT claiming that teachers predictions are usually accurate, or that the summer term teacher assessment usually matches the level given by the tests? It strikes me that these are two different things.
  9. The NUT policy is that the tests are unnecessary because parents can get the most accurate and up-to-date information from their child's teacher as tests do not assess children's achievement across the whole curriculum.
    The results in my previous post are just one from a set of seven schools which took part in a recently completed year-long project aimed at raising the standard of literacy skills. The results from the other schools were broadly similar and seem to contradict the idea that teacher assessment is accurate enough to render the tests unnecessary. 95% of pupils in the project predicted to get a Level 3 got a Level 4.
    My 2012 project will already have 30 schools and I am hopeful that this will increase significantly by September with the co-operation of one local authority.
  10. Eddie, I'm not sure if you understand my point? A prediction made in September is not made by a teacher using a crystal ball, it is just read off a chart. The class teacher has nothing to do with it. What you need to find out is whether there is a difference between the teacher assessment and the test result in June.
  11. markuss

    markuss Occasional commenter

    This reminds me of when a secondary teacher with a child in Primary asked me what TAssessment meant. Was it like an estimated grade at GCSE but for sats (she meant NCTs)? she wanted to know.
    I gave her the obvious (for an assessment person) answer. The TA result IS the level. It's the NCT that gives the estimated level.
  12. And of course test results can feed into teacher assessments being part of the whole assessment process so of course, they are not going to be wildly far apart for most children. (Of course you always can get 1 or 2 who either over or under achieve.)
    Provided tests are marked properly...(writing anyone?) then they should be broadly reflecting the teacher assessments as both are based on national curriculum attainment levels.
    I have this argument in our school that one of the few ways to get truly independent work suitable for applying APP to is to actually use tests...
  13. Yes. you may be right. I am a retired teacher turned publisher/researcher. My project resources are focused exclusively on the acquisition of literacy skills and are in no way related to the Key Stage 2 tests themselves - the resources simply promote the acquisition of reading, writing, spelling, grammar and listening skills. I asked the participating schools in Sept 2010 to let me have their prediction for the 2011 English test without disclosing how they arrive at these predictions.
    Nevertheless, I feel that the differences between what the teachers predicted and what the children actually was very significant. I have no doubt that as the school year progresses, the teachers' views would have changed gradually as the childrens mastery of literacy skills improved.
    If the teachers used a predictive test instrument of some kind or other then effectiveness of that test must surely be questionable.
  14. Predictions are based on previous assessments and the "average" progress. They don't take into account the qualities of the teacher and children and the personalities of the teacher/children. A good Year 6 teacher will obviously exceed any average progress - my experience is actually that the Year 6 teacher often makes nearly half or more in some cases of any overall KS2 progress.
    Also if previous assessments aren't rigorous enough then the data is a waste of space...
  15. My research certainly supports that view - there are no magical programmes that will improve literacy skills whatever their publishers might claim but there certainly are some magical teachers. Every endeavour requires the right tools however, and with the right tools, magical teachers can almost completely eradicate the Level 3 English and at the same time, increase the number of predicted Level 5s. Even a poor teacher however, given the right tools can significantly improve the skills levels of his/her pupils.
    The core of the matter is that the acquisition of any skill is, unlike the assimilation of concepts, not dependent on IQ and therefore it is, in theory at least, possible for virtually all pupils to acquire the standard of literacy skills necessary to achieve Level 5.

  16. The child in question should, based on his ks1 scores, have been a 4b by now. My assessment of 4a isn't a prediction: it's where he is!
  17. oldsomeman

    oldsomeman Star commenter

    tests are but snapshots on the day and leaving outside the waya childfeels concentrates etc.a lot depends upon what is set and the way they are presented.Over the yeas there have been some awful SAT tests and i have seen children reckoned to gain 4 end up with 3/Just because they didnt understand, or where unused to the format used.Once they understood and resat a similar format ttest they then gained the place where they should be.

  18. On another forum, I read a post from a secondary English teacher whose feeder primary schools were among the 25% of schools which boycotted the tests. This teacher stated that they had received greatly increased numbers of Level 5 English from the primary teachers based on their own assessments but that they (the secondary teachers) could observe no improvement in the literacy skills of these children.
    All tests are only a snapshot on one day. So too are the GCSEs and A Levels and of course also, most University Degrees.
    Externally set tests, for all their shortcomings, are at least as impersonal and objective a form of assessment as it is possible for any assessment to be.

  19. markuss

    markuss Occasional commenter

    "And of course test results can feed into teacher assessments being part of the whole assessment process so of course, they are not going to be wildly far apart for most children"
    No,no "of course" at all. In fact, the NCTs are separate and different from TA in the way they assess. NCT score takes no account of TA and KS2 TA should not be contaminated by tests - it's supposed to be based on normal work in the classroom (plus homework, if relevant).
  20. markuss

    markuss Occasional commenter

    That's why NCT = 50% and TA = 50%.
    Neither should be contaminated by the other.

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