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Rugby union laws - the ruck at breakdown.

Discussion in 'Personal' started by Mathsteach2, Jun 16, 2019.

  1. Mathsteach2

    Mathsteach2 Established commenter

    If I am in the wrong forum please tell me and I will move, probably to the Physical Education Forum. However there are specific sports threads in this forum, and here we get more traffic, so I will give it a try.

    OK, my problem is when watching international games it appears that the laws are not followed when rucks form at breakdowns. As I understand it, a tackled player, if brought to the ground and off their feet, must release the ball and allow it to be grounded or they can pass it back with one allowed movement, even if the ball is already grounded. As they go down they are allowed to turn their bodies to protect the ball. They must then make every attempt to roll away. Other players on both sides must stay on their feet, form a ruck over the ball and try to gain possession by driving the opposing team away, a sort of impromptu scrummage. Players cannot join the ruck from the side. They CANNOT reach for the ball with their hands in front of the impromptu off-side line.

    What I see all of the time are players diving over the ball to block it from going back to the opposing side, coming off their feet and therefore should no longer participate in play. They should not dive, they should stay on their feet and only engage opposing players who also should be on their feet. If they do go to ground they should try to get out of the way.
  2. colpee

    colpee Star commenter

    Is it not that players must ‘endeavour’ to stay on their feet, rather than never have feet off - i.e. a judgement call by the ref as to intent?
  3. Mathsteach2

    Mathsteach2 Established commenter

    What I see so many times, when the ball carrier is down and he has released the ball, perhaps moved it once back towards his own players, an opposing player dives over him with hands attempting to hold the ball for his team mates to gain possession. There appears to be no attempt to stay on his feet to cause a ruck to form, which requires three players at least. This could be three from the same team if one team is slow, but all on their feet and trying to move over the ball against the opposition if they are there. An off-side line is thus created and the ball can be picked up legally. A pile of bodies is avoided and more open play is possible. I think!
  4. bigfatgit

    bigfatgit Occasional commenter

    The big problem when coaching / teaching youngsters is that the "senior" game does not seem to play to the same interpretation of the laws as other levels. You coach the kids one thing / explain that they can't do this or that and then they watch an international and the players get away with all sorts, not just at the ruck

    It's all about "keeping the game flowing" supposedly
  5. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    There are rules? Wow. Who knew!
  6. Geoff Thomas

    Geoff Thomas Star commenter

    No. There are laws.
    blazer and Stiltskin like this.
  7. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    It takes Wayne Barnes nearly 10 minutes to explain it to fellow pros!
  8. Mathsteach2

    Mathsteach2 Established commenter

    If referees awarded penalties according to the laws perhaps players would desist in breaking them. It appears games are mostly decided on penalties now, and the kick to touch will keep the game flowing. I thought the latest law changes were designed to open the game up, but it is becoming too much like rugby league.
    When will the ball be put in straight at set scrums!? I think line-outs now work well and are very interesting.
    I fully agree with the comment concerning coaching in schools.
  9. Geoff Thomas

    Geoff Thomas Star commenter

    It usually is, except in the upper echelons of the professional game.
    grumpydogwoman likes this.
  10. Toomuchtooyoung

    Toomuchtooyoung Occasional commenter

    Read an article about this in the Guardian some months back during the season, about how it sends the wrong message to school and club players. Professionalisation has made huge changes to the game and continues to do so.
  11. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    A curse of a doctrine.
  12. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    No-one wants to see stoppages like scrums and lineouts? Rubbish!
  13. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Lead commenter

    What you're describing there is jackaling. The first man in is allowed to go for the ball but they can't go off their feet. They'll get pinged for that even in the top tier. However supporting your own bodyweight is harder to judge. Refs are getting better at spotting hands/arms on floor first or leaning on the tackled player. As first man in if they get their hands on the ball before the ruck forms they don't have to let go. The problem is the tackled player often doesn't release the ball and allow it to be played, and a mini struggle ensures hoping the jackal gets knocked off their feet.

    What we're often seeing though is illegal no-arm clearouts to get rid of them. For that safety reason I think jackaling will be pushed out in later law changes. Hopefully we'll also get rid of crocodile rolls in the ruck and pulling opposition player through and out the ruck.

    Oh and the tackled player throwing the ball from the ground. Get rid of that too please.

    *edit* a ruck is at least one player from each team who are in contact, on their feet and over the ball (which is on the ground). You can't form a ruck with your own players.
    colpee likes this.
  14. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    A retrograde step?
  15. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    Line-outs I like to see.

    But scrums? Not so much. They're interminable at international level! One chance at a put-in or penalise them.
  16. blazer

    blazer Star commenter

    O for the good old days when the guy on the floor shielding the ball would get a good shoeing!
    Stiltskin likes this.
  17. Mathsteach2

    Mathsteach2 Established commenter

    Correct, and my apologies, I do not know where I got my idea of three players. However I will paint a picture. The ball carrier is tackled and goes to ground. Must he release it even if the ball is not grounded? I thought not, he can hold onto it until support arrives, he can get back on his feet and continue to drive forward without releasing the ball, or he can pass it from off his grounded position. If the ball is grounded whilst he is holding it, he must then release it and try to roll away, and only return and join the ruck which should be forming, joining it legally of course.
    I appreciate how posters have drawn distinctions between club/school rugby and the professional game. As with everything, the love of money spoils all. Most spectators at an international game want their country to win (the wickedness of nationallism) rather than see a decent game of rugby.
  18. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Lead commenter

    Once tackled (held and brought to ground) the tackled player must make the ball available regardless of it is touching the floor or not. So releasing it, pushing it or passing it (don't like that one) backwards, or placing it in any direction.

    They must move away from the ball or her up and ensure they don't position themselves on, around or over the ball to stop the opposition from getting the ball.

    They are entitled to get back to their feet but must read the ball first. They can only play it once in their feet.

    Your comment about spectators at international games may be true, mostly because so few real rugby supporters can get tickets. Saying that the French fans are quite vocal at telling their team they don't like their game management.
  19. red_observer

    red_observer Star commenter

    Rugby unions become too predictable at the top level. Boring in fact.
    blazer likes this.
  20. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    Rucked off the ball, if I remember correctly.

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