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Discussion in 'Pay and conditions' started by missbreak, Jul 9, 2011.
When can I do this? Any tim? or the usual resignation dates? Thanks
You can't resign from a TLR. You can resign from your job if you wish and the normal resignation dates apply.
In the good old days of A and B allowances (showing my age) people could, and did give up their responsibilities and took the pay cut.
Talk to your head. It might be possible if there are teachers at your school who would like to apply for internally promoted posts.
If not, it's extremely difficult, because there is then no 'body slot' into which to appoint a new person.
I was under the impression, DM, that the days where you resigned from the job if you held a position of responsibility are no more and that it is the TLR you give up not your job.
That's why Middle March said it depends if they have a body to slot into my TLR!!!
Just wanted clarification; it seems TLRs can be taken away but can you give them up?
Simply not true. there is no regulation or stipulation in the STPCD which places this limitation on TLR postholders.
If, however, a person does so and there is no other suitable person within the school to take on the TLR, it potentially makes that person redundant, surely?
Since there is nothing in our contract to stipulate that, I would say not. The TLR goes with the post, not the person, so, if the post is redundant IT disappears, the person does not and is still employed, surely?
To my knowledge this hasn't been tested in law yet ... unless anyone knows of any precedent....?
What I meant was - if the person holding the TLR resigns it and there is no other suitable person in school but the school structure still requires the TLR, in order to advertise externally there might well be a need for a redundancy to create a vacancy.
Say a teacher holds a TLR as Head of Geography and says they want to give up the TLR and just continue as a Geography teacher. There is no vacancy for a Geography teacher as a new Head of Geography has to be appointed so the resigning teacher has made themselves redundant. If there is someone suitable who is prepared to "swap jobs" then it might be possible to arrange this internally although many schools would take the opportunity to advertise externally so that they make the best possible appointment.
I have heard this from multiple sources and I don't think anyone has challenged it. Do you know otherwise?
user="Middlemarch"]there might well be a need for a redundancy to create
a vacancy.[/quote]I would say the school has a
problem, if the teacher resigns their post as a teacher, all well and
but if the teacher merely relinquishes their TLR (which only goes with the post, not the person) the school would have to try and declare them redundant and as I
said, I am not aware that this has been tested in law up to now - do you
As to the advice from the 'lifestyle managers' of Ten Lifestyle Management
Ltd, DM, why would anyone other than their subscribers be interested in
that or indeed give their views any greater credibility than, say, union or RIG 'guidance', when our conditions of service are covered by the STPCD which
provides NO powers to schools to declare teachers redundant when
resigning a TLR? unless you know otherwise.....?
I don't know otherwise beckton. Our local authority solicitors say it is not possible to resign a TLR. Are you suggesting that the OP should try to make herself a test case? Surely a better solution would be for her to have a chat with her Headteacher to see whether a way forward can be found?
absolutely. And she certainly shouldn't go into any such discussions with the thought that she has to resign her job in order to relinquish additional responsibility payments.
As to the case law, I am merely saying no one has tested the assertion that relinquishing a TLR equates to making oneself redundant and that shouldn't be put forward as the way things are - perhaps a bit of wishful thinking from your LA solicitors, since they have no precedent or actual law to base that opinion on?
Unfortunately, it is STPCD which makes this the confused situation it is. The Document makes no specific reference to just how this should be dealt with, furthermore it uses different terminology when discussing TLRs, which adds to the confusion.
If someone is appointed to a post which carries a TLR then it would seem logical that the allowance is part and parcel of the contract of employment; not an add-on.
Do you have a link for any union guidance that supports your view beckton? I repeat that I have heard the same thing from numerous sources on numerous occasions (that doesn't mean it isn't wrong) and a Google search suggests you are the only dissenting voice.
No worries, DM, I've been a minority dissenting voice before on other issues (and a lone dissenting voice on one vide: ) and that hasn't bothered me or changed anything.
guidance is of no value or weight where the law is concerned, as far as
I am aware none has been issued by my union.The only supporting
statement I have is the STPCD but since that is the law governing our
pay and conditions I feel fairly comfortable turning to it - can you say
the same of your 'numerous sources' (no matter how often they have
reiterated the same unsubstantiated advice/opinion)?
The only places I have seen it stated that a teacher has to
resign in order to relinquish their additional TLR responsibilities is
on the TES forums, that subscriber website you linked to and possibly a
Senior Management advisory site (I might have made that one up).
If it is not included in the contract, tom, then it is not part of the contract.
As the TRLrelinquisherdeathcultists would have it: if a teacher were appointed by one head in March and a new head convinced the GB to restructure in the Autumn, the teacher would simply have to put up with being thrown out, on the grounds that they were an add-on? - there would be no safeguarding of course, as they would no longer be an employee in this nightmare scenario.
My view: a teacher is appointed to a teaching post, TLRs are awarded for additional responsibilities (the R part of TLR), the TLR is an add-on, not the other way round.
I completely agree with you that the STPCD is unclear on this, so I hope we will hear no more of this 'you must resign' nonsense, 'cos it makes no sense, the situation is unclear.
I'll send you a pm about the ICT Core subject thing.
In future I will say "Everyone says you cannot reliquish a TLR except someone on TES called becktonboy. I have absolutely no idea whether his view has any merit." Any better?
if you need 'everyone' to support that, go right ahead, once you have asked them all, but you should definitely change
to 'no-one has any real idea'.
You'll convince me that bananas are pink next.