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Realism finally triumphs in England: "25-40% of pupils ineducable" OFFICIAL

Discussion in 'Education news' started by BigFrankEM, Oct 8, 2018.

  1. baxterbasics

    baxterbasics Senior commenter

    I agree with what most people are saying here

    it all comes from a massively divided society in the UK. In Japan for example, nearly all kids are driven and want to succeed at school.

    We have a historic problem in the UK of an underclass of perhaps 5% of the population are pretty much opposed to education.

    Plus we have a strong working class, who might make up another 40% - their parents are probably hardworking, but have never really valued education and take up manual jobs etc.

    Now throw into the mix a very high level of immigration in recent decades. I was at a school the other day where a high contingent of Slovakian kids with hardly any English skills were mixed in with bottom set indigenous kids. And they were set the task of looking at a Macbeth soliloquy; it was a complete non-starter.

    Until we can fix all of these entrenched social issues that detract from the 50% or so who really want to learn, and have no language barriers etc, a lot of teaching in these "rough" academies is about behaviour management window dressing, such as tarting up exercise books with lots of different coloured pens and stickers to make it "appear" that the kids are really learning.

    sorry if this post is judgemental and based on stereotypes etc, but that's how I see it.

    The politcians are never going to fix the social issues, as they basically don't give a toss.
  2. border_walker

    border_walker Established commenter

    You mean that the old "free market" apprentice system - seemed to work well, present system doesn't - never seen any socalled vocational education work in a school for students.
    tenpast7 likes this.
  3. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Occasional commenter

    My added observation


    If the implication of the post is that the OP was in any way "directed at" such children then nothing could be further from the truth.

    Nothing there in any way identified whom the 25-40% of ineducables might be.

    I can confidently assert that nothing I have posted on these boards since first joining them in 2005 can be remotely interpreted as my perceiving such children as ineducable.

    Indeed were fewer resources, and especially much much much less teacher-time [the most precious and under appreciated resource of all, I would argue] devoted to the ineducable, as perceived but not defined in the OP, then there would be more available for those who want and need attention.

    Having visited Am Spiegelgrund in Vienna, I am not unaware of what the Nazis thought of such children.

    Ditto modern, progressive, liberal go-ahead nations such as Belgium and Holland who don't waste precious resources on those whom they perceive as expendable.


    Though as we are all well aware, "that could never happen here", in'nit?
  4. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Occasional commenter

    From 95% well disposed to schooling at the start to only 50% a few paragraphs later is, for me at least, a major discrepancy
  5. bessiesmith

    bessiesmith Occasional commenter

    My sister teaches in a special school for children with profound learning disabilities. Sometimes she is teaching them things like how to use a head-switch to make simple binary choices (Ribena or orange squash). I know she believes she is making a difference to those children and they are capable of learning.

    The problems arise around unrealistic expectations and unsuitable curriculum for a number of children in mainstream schools. (Should all children take a GCSE in a foreign language, for example? Should children who cannot read fluently be learning about fronted adverbials?) Targets are far more important than individuals to the people who make big decisions.
    The problems are exacerbated by the funding shortage which means children are in very big classes with little or no TA support. Those children who are falling behind gradually become more disaffected and more problematic in the classroom. There is no option of high-quality alternative provision or different routes for many of the children who are not coping in the one-size fits all system.
    Catgirl1964 and Jamvic like this.
  6. dreamweaverplusactor

    dreamweaverplusactor New commenter

    I'd also add in the growth of the middle-class parents who want their children to 'come into and out of school with just a smile on their faces' and therefore are against any stress or possibility that their child could have to learn something which might be difficult.

    You end up with only around 30% of children who really have any respect for education!
  7. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    The only evidence I have on that is a) your second comment (which is true), and b) rose tinted spectacles. The German system seems to work well, as it does in individual schools elsewhere (such as the school in Chicago mentioned earlier.)
    Too true
    I have, and the students also had regular days on work placement. It seemed to work quite well.
  8. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Occasional commenter

    Post 21 appeared to start with 95% of English pupils positively disposed to schooling. But very quickly within the post that figure fell to around 50%

    Now only a few posts further on we are apparently down to 30%

    Any advance (decrease, that is) on 30% ?

    (Which might obviously have the knock on effect of pushing my OP strap-line well above 70%)
  9. baxterbasics

    baxterbasics Senior commenter

    The percentage approach is obviously flawed

    However, perhaps we can all agree that a fair number of kids in every classroom in the "average" secondary school make teaching very hard, and can ruin the chances of those want to learn.

    Perhaps we can also agree that the problem is :

    1.Getting worse, rather than better

    2. Concentrated even more in the areas of historic underachievement, with often high levels of immigration thrown into the mix (an added language barrier, and sometimes a very real clash of cultures - not the idealised "celebration of a diverse cultural mix")

    3. More likely now than ever to be perceived as the fault of the teacher for failing to "engage" pupils or to "differentiate" lessons.

    4. The government is either hopelessly out of touch about 1-3, or doesn't give a toss, or simply enjoys letting teachers suffer undue stress - perhaps they also wish to perpetuate a system in which millions of kids "fail" or have their life chances ruined.
    Catgirl1964 likes this.
  10. R13

    R13 New commenter

    some children are ineducable.
    I've had children with a negative mental age, ie, children who's cognitive ability does not meet that of a new born baby.
    I do sometimes wonder why we spend millions "educating" children who can't benefit in any way.
    The normal response to that question is to call me a nazi, rather than to answer the question.

    In 1971 we gave those with Learning Disabilities the right to an education just over 100 years after the other 99% of the population got that right. This consigned the offensive notion of a person being ineducable to history in this country.

    So in reply to Dunnocks, following over 35 years working in Special Education with children who have severe, complex and profound learning difficulties and disabilities I can categorically state I have yet to meet an ineducable child but I have met a couple of Nazi sympathisers who would agree with his/her views. I have met lots of teachers who don't have the ability to educate those with SEN and I have also had the pleasure of working with many teachers who can do so brilliantly.

    Your views are offensive and you should be ashamed of yourself
  11. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    I think that it's wrong to lump those with learning disabilities in with people who just aren't really very bright / academic. Most of the 15-40% don't have learning disabilities - they're just not at all academic.
  12. colpee

    colpee Star commenter

    Of course it wouldn’t - the administrative post of Sergeant Major exists because someone is a recognised expert in army matters and good at leading professionally trained adults. He/she can command respect and performance from adults who have signed a contract of employment, and for the most part enjoy their job and are well paid to carry it out. Furthermore, the ultimate sanctions are really comply or leave.

    How that translates into a classroom is beyond me.
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
    JL48 likes this.
  13. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    no I am not ashamed of myself in the slightest, it is you who should be ashamed, , and it is people like you who shut down open debate.

    The money and resources poured into the education of some children is completely wasted, if a does not have the intellectual capacity of a new born baby, then what is the point of spending hundreds of thousands of pounds pretending to educating them

    thats great, that is an education, teaching someoene how to indicate their preferences for a drink. But some children will never have the capabilities to either have a preference, or have a drink, and yet may still have a permanent, full time,1-2-1 TA for the whole of their school years.
  14. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    sorry, but this can't happen, if you've been in this game for 35 years, either you simply haven't recognised those children when you have met them, or you have recognised them and don't want to admit it, for political reasons.
    monicabilongame likes this.
  15. baxterbasics

    baxterbasics Senior commenter

    I think that the percentage of people who cannot be "educated" in the traditional sense of the word, is pretty minute. But even for those people, there is progress to be seen in simple tasks.

    I once did a day's supply at a residential home for profound and multiple learning difficulties. I was asked to supervise one lad who was about 17 years old with an extreme case of autism. He rocked backwards and forwards on his chair and pointed excitedly at a Where's Wallly book. I don't think he was even finding wally, but got some sort of amusement from the pictures.

    However, perhaps "learning" for the day was more about the simple acts of getting dressed independently; opening a door; making some sort of eye contact, and eating food in the company of others. You can't take anything for granted with the more extreme cases. To do those simple tasks was probably learning/ developmental progress for him.

    What would be the alternative, locking him in a room all day like the Victorians used to, as an object of shame?
  16. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    yes, it may be very small number, but no, the children I am talking about will never ever perform a simple task.

    However, that is just the principle - we waste a lot of money in education.
  17. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    children can be looked after, and given a happy life, without an education. Some children should be in a day care facility rather than a school though.

    or rather, for some children the school should just act as a dy care facility, and not go through the rigmerole of pretending to educate....
  18. baxterbasics

    baxterbasics Senior commenter

    How about the example that I gave?

    The boy had some pretty menial tasks to do - but for him this is a form of education because progress can be measured.

    For example, if he smiles at somebody a few times more a day than he did six months ago. If he puts a book back after he has read it? If he goes to dinner table of his own accord without being escorted every time? If he signals that he needs the toilet?

    These are tiny little tasks that we all take for granted, but it gives him some sort of future in the world, even if it he will always need a carer at his side.
  19. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    There is another class of children who I also wonder about.

    Children with dengenerative brain conditions.

    Is it fair to force them into school work when they no longer want to do it?

    I've had children in my class in the past for whom I was still under pressure to demonstrate " progress" whilst their brains were disintegrating. Fine if they want to join in with work, but there comes a time when they are distressed that they can't do what they used to be able to do, and a time beyond that when they no longer remember that they ever could do it.

    why not just let them play? Why the constant forced "education", and why spend thousands of pound on resources to do it?

    crazy waste of tax payers money, my sanity, and their quality of life
  20. baxterbasics

    baxterbasics Senior commenter

    Well, now you are getting into a more tiny minority, still.

    I've not really come across that group of kids before, and I don't know if that is a terminal condition, so perhaps you could share some links or more info etc.

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