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r u sure you want to teach in Saudi?

Discussion in 'Teaching abroad' started by arbitrator, May 23, 2008.

  1. Oops I meant to add: don't for one minute think this is a one off isolated incident. It is a regular occurence.
  2. stopwatch

    stopwatch Lead commenter

    You have a point. However, take a look at some of the decisions/judgements made in UK against violent offenders. Many of these are plainly stupid and unfair on the victim. Legal loopholes in UK are also to blame for many violent criminals getting away, sometimes literally, with murder.
    Although not as blatantly unjust or immoral as this Saudi case, they also have a lot to answer for.
    Violent crime in UK is probably worse and more common in UK than in Saudi, its just seen as part of everyday British culture.
  3. You are of course right Stopwatch, for the vast majority of people living in the KSA, or any other M.E country, life is indeed much better than in the UK or Western Europe. When I say vast majority, I mean people like your goodself, a lowly paid ex-pat teacher, or the parents of the children who send their kids to your school. They, of course, make up the vast majority of the people residing in those countires. For the minority, people like maids, nannies, road sweepers, taxi drivers, chambermaids etc etc life is just tickety boo as well.

    Personally, I believe that standards of justice and 'fair play', or indeed genuine democracy, are far from perfect in the UK or Europe, but they are streaks ahead of the M.E or KSA. You think differently Stopwatch. Oh, by the way, I was being ever so slightly facetious in my first paragraph.
  4. stopwatch

    stopwatch Lead commenter

    Thank you for your response.
    I still disagree with you.
    Only I wont stoop to be as facetious as you.
    You basically reiterated what I said and little more.
  5. stopwatch

    stopwatch Lead commenter

    and by the way I dont think differently. my comments related to violent crime in both countries and how it is dealt with, not about democracy. The level of violence in UK is streaks ahead and unfortunately it is not always punished effectively.
    I know KSA is not a democratic country, it is a police state, and I am not a KSA 'sympathiser' by any means.
  6. What a load of twaddle you do'th spout Stopwatch, you are not a KSA sympathiser, pull the other one.

    The OP makes a commnet about the lack of rights for migrant workers in the KSA, and you try and draw a paralled with the UK by saying how bad violent crime is in the UK. Can't quite see the connection myself.

    You certainly appear go out of your way to paint a bad picture of the UK.....hence your comments.... 'Violent crime in UK is probably worse and more common in UK than in Saudi, its just seen as part of everyday British culture' and 'The level of violence in UK is streaks ahead and unfortunately it is not always punished effectively'. So I think any reasonable person would see that you are castigating the UK as a whole, not a particular incident, but as a whole.

    Now, let's compare this with your take on the KSA. You comment in post 3 ...' Although not as blatantly unjust or immoral as this Saudi case', I note you mention the word case, thus not making a general statement about the KSA, but just this case. As the OP points out, the abuse is not an uncommon occurance in the KSA.

    But hey Stopwatch, whenever anyone makes a negative comment about the KSA... do step in and make nonsensical comparisons as a means to denigrate the UK and thus make the KSA not seem so bad... and then do go on to pretend you are not a KSA sympathiser. I will continue to believe you are full of poppy ****.

  7. stopwatch

    stopwatch Lead commenter

    In the words of my daughter - whatever!

    You have your opinion and I have mine - end of story. I have made my point. Don't bother trying to interpret what I am saying to your own ends.

    Im not that bothered whether you understand what I am trying to say or where I am coming from, and I certainly dont intend trying to justify what I am saying to you.

    If you want a verbal dual with someone, go somewhere else and have it.

    By all means respond.
  8. Do your time in Saudi, Stopwatch, and earn your money, I don't blame anyone for doing that, but try to retain the integrity to see the place for what it is. As it is, as well as giving up a large chunk of your life, you seem to have conceded a part of your critical faculties. Pitiful.

  9. The point you managed to make is that the UK is more violent than the KSA, oh, and that you are not a sympathiser for the KSA.

    You do mention that violent crime is not dealt with effectively in the UK, although you don't say how it is dealt with in the KSA,

    You of course don't have to justify yourself to me. Thank god for that I'd say, because if you had to you'd fail miserably.

    You do have your opinion, that violent crime is worse in UK than in KSA. However, you do not respond to the OP's original post or the BBC's news item. I wonder why that is.....oh yes........because you DON'T sympathise with the KSA..........I forgot. I prefer talk to the hand 'coz the face ain't listening......but whatever will do. Do carry on justifying the KSA, you do it so well.
  10. stopwatch

    stopwatch Lead commenter

    Im sorry if i havent made my standpoint/views clearly enough. Here goes:

    The article shows one of many cases of torture by KSA employers upon defenseless people.
    In most cases these crimes go unpunished by the Saudis themselves
    The victims rarely get sufficiently compensated if at all.
    KSA is a police State and not a democracy.
    I think this article's content is horrendous and indefensible. My intention is NOT to defend it (hence my words 'unjustifiable' and 'immoral').

    UK -
    has a structured legal system which works in most cases
    has many examples, particularly with violent crime where i feel personally the perpetrator does not get punished suffuciently.
    Does have a level of violent crime which, although different in nature (though not always), is, in my opinion, higher than that in the KSA.
    The level of violence in UK, particularly amongst young people has spiralled to the point that concerns me.

    I am trying to give another, valid viewpoint, and not defend this article/ not saying there is nothing wrong with it. I dont particularly want to get into a protracted disussion whereby you think you know exactly where I am coming from when believe me you have no real idea. Now if you want to still insist that I am a KSA 'sympathiser'/that I am lying/that I have no principles/have lost my critical faculties there is not a lot I can do about that (in fact I find myself thinking 'why am I explaining myself to this person')

    By the way FB, before you start judging me using words like 'pitiful' try and take the time to find out exactly what it is I am trying to say. Some people on this forum seem to resort to sarcasm and abuse far too easily.
  11. That is all very well Stopwatch. The OP's comment was basically about the abuse of immigrant workers in the KSA. You wanted to give another view.....even a counter argument, which is what another view is. You seemed to be concluding that the UK is just as bad as the KSA, and in the case of violent crime, even worse. If you are in the KSA, please do stay there.

    Your reply to the OP was totally irrelevent. I am pretty sure he/she did not want to start a debate about violent crime, I think he/she was highlighting the plight of immigrant workers. Your valid counter argument, oops, sorry, viewpoint, had no relevence. You have still not stated what 'the point' of your statement about violent crime in the UK was. Yes, violent crime is higher in the UK than the KSA. What is your point????? You reply that it is another valid view.......jolly good......so i'll to a Paxman and ask again.......so what is your point??????

    I guess you feel safer in the KSA, great, as I said before, stay there.
  12. stopwatch

    stopwatch Lead commenter

    Having looked at some of your previous threads:


    I realise that there is no point arguing/discussing anything with you really. You just appear to enjoy a good 'fight' and/or winding people up.

    I dont understand why you give my 'point' and then say "and what is your 'point'".

    By the way I am not in Saudi, and before you suggest it, I am not a Saudi.

    also... didnt you work in Sudan? isnt that a place with a horrific human rights record?

    OMG you've got me doing it now!!
  13. Give it up ****chops, you made a ridiculous comparison and got shown up. You're in a hole, stop digging!
  14. stopwatch

    stopwatch Lead commenter

    And who are you? his right hand man? or maybe him in another guise?

    the way in which you both goad and insult, I would say you are one and the same. Your not that smart are you.

    Go on, you'll be telling me you will be standing next to me in a bar one day and I wont even know you're there.

  15. kemevez

    kemevez Occasional commenter

    placewherechelseafansbeatthecrapoutofyouforbeingthere does indeed appear to be hanging onto clovis' right arm and imitating a puppet.

    stopwatch, clovis sometimes makes a little bit of sense but is a wind up merchant, an idiot or undecided.
  16. I've decided...
  17. Kemevez, I was wondering how long it would take you to come in and support Stopwatch.

    The OP criticises the KSA, and Stopwatch responds with a criticism of the UK. He goes on to say that he/she was only expressing another point of view. The view that the UK really is no better than the KSA. I really can't see what else he/she could have been alluding to. The OP says bad things happen in the KSA, so Stopwatch responds that bad things happen in the UK.

    I have a flight to catch in a minute...so I'll just paste these two statements;

    'According to former Philippine ambassador Roy Señares as many as eight in every 12 Filipino maids in Saudi Arabia suffer from some form of sexual abuse. The 900,000 strong Filipino community here uses informal groups of its own citizens to help abused maids escape from abusive employers and seek refuge at Philippine diplomatic missions until they can be sent home. But these groups operate in a gray zone without official recognition.
    The recent case of the young Saudi journalist Rabah Al-Quwayi, who was arrested a few months ago for his postings to Internet chat rooms that criticized how Islam was being interpreted in the kingdom, and only released in late April when a high government official intervened, shows just how badly the country needs judicial reform.'

    Christophe Wilcke, the officer in charge of the Saudi desk at HRW, in a phone interview from New York stated...
    ?Saudi Arabia is a gross violator of human rights and does not treat human rights as an enforceable legal obligation,? said Wilcke, who was part of a HRW delegation that visited the kingdom for three weeks last February.
    ?The biggest problems in the kingdom remain the judicial system, a lack of women?s rights, the maltreatment of migrant workers, religious discrimination and detention without trial,? he added.
    The Saudi mission to the UN in New York was contacted to react to these allegations, but did not respond.

    Stopwatch and Kemevez, feel free to to say things are just as bad in the UK, but in a different way. Then pretend that is not what you are saying, but that you are just expressing another point of view.... Bjollocks I would say to that.

    Oh, and PP, I do hope you decision is not a recent one, as my decision about you was made yonks ago.

  18. stopwatch

    stopwatch Lead commenter

    You dont like being told youre wrong do you.

  19. stopwatch

    stopwatch Lead commenter

    ..... sorry my Mum says I have to go in for tea, I can't play any more. Bye
  20. the hippo

    the hippo Lead commenter Community helper

    This thread is supposed to be about whether or not you would like to teach in Saudi Arabia. Most (if not all) of the postings do not seem to address this question at all.

    I have no doubt that some pretty awful things go on in Saudi Arabia, such as beating up of maids and abusing drivers, and there does not seem to be much chance of this changing in the near future. The other side of the coin is that many Saudis would say that some of the things that go on in the UK or in America are pretty awful too, from their standpoint. So who is right?

    Another point that is perhaps relevant is that the kind of abuse mention in the BBC article is by no means limited to Saudi Arabia. Similar acts of cruelty and intimidation go on in other Middle East countries, such as Qatar and Kuwait. What about China's human rights record?

    Is it going to make any difference to the Saudi government whether or not you take up a teaching post in Riyadh or Jeddah or wherever? Of course not. On the other hand, would your conscience be so outraged that you feel that by being in Saudi Arabia you would be condoning or giving approval to the brutal treatment of domestic workers? I think that the Saudi government and the abusers themsevles are not really interested in our approval or disapproval.

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