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Qualified Teacher Learning and Skills (QTLS)

Discussion in 'Further Education' started by mortymoo, Jun 10, 2007.

  1. ***********

    You could be right. There is some ambiguity around the word 'qualification'.

    The way I read it is that I would not need to take any further qualifications, but that I would need to go through the process of 'professional formation'. Whatever the **** that is.

  2. What it appears to me from reading the document is that in fact FE teachers have been yet further unqualified, having had the SFC sector removed from those institutions which can recognise teachers with PGCE/Cert Ed for FE/PC as qualified. Up until now SFC have been able to accept FE trained teachers as qualified.

    Ot would seem that the only places a teacher with a post compulsary education level teaching certificate ( one which confers QTLS) is either an FE college or a private training provider and that means less job opportunities than there have ever been for post compulsary sector trained and qualified teachers.

  3. ***********

    having bothered to check up on what you have said i see you are wrong on almost every count as the regulations do not allow seamless transfer from qts to qtls after september 07, nore do they not recognise qtls in sixth form colleges

    where do you get off on scaremongering and peddling the wrong information
  4. It would have more credibility if she could spell 'compulsory'.
  5. It would be good if I could see to type you mean.

    But how about non sequitur for your logical falacy of assuming that my spelling or typing erros have any bearing on my argument?

    Too many people are quick to complain about poor spelling, too few are able to complain about poor and false logical arguments. I would contend the later is far more important than the former.

    But the documents clearly state that QTS will recognised in SFC and will be the status of choice.
    That effectively means that if you QTLS you will need to retrain or be paid as unqualified ( right now QTLS is accepted as qualified)

    On the other hand it also clearly states that QTS will be accepted for registration as QTLS without further training being required.

    If anyone with QTS finds themselves required by their institution to retrain I would just like to remind them that they must takle the issue to their union. The unions are unanimous ( as are government offices and quangos alike) that QTS is qualified teacher status at all levels and a holder of it will not be required to untake any further training or courses or experience to obtain QTLS.

    Dont get me wrong here. I have long argued the point that FE teachers should have equal standing to those with QTS in a number of arenas. But it is not going to be the case. QTS is equivalent to QTLS but not the other way round. Its a one way street. A two way street would allow FE teachers QTS recognition in SFC and in Sixth forms in state schools. The current situation clearly states that is not the case.
  6. Fallacy?
  7. In my experience people who can spell well very rarely have any other ability than that they spell well.

    Have you any real argument or point of view to offer to this discussion?
  8. i have just spoken to somebody at the ifl to check ***********'s comments about sixth form colleges, it seems he is wrong as i thought

    if i teach in a sixth form college and am already a member of the gtc i can keep that instead of joining ifl but still must satisfy their requirements for cpd. if i do not have, or do not keep up, my gtc membership i have to register with the ifl. if i am an existing teacher employed before sept 2007 anywhere i do not have to have qtls, this is for new teachers only.

    i was told that the regulations will cover a wide group of people including colleges, adult education and training in the workplace and that it is not appropriate to make broad comparisons with the requirements for schools as they are very different areas to teach in - makes sense to me.

    i followed up ***********'s point about status in sixth forms with the ifl and have spoken to ucu my trade union- both agree, *********** seems to be talking about schools here and not sixth form colleges, in sixth form colleges membership of the ifl (think qtls) will be the majority and there is no pay differential. the person i spoke to at ucu didn't know exact figures but thinks there are only a few hundred teachers in sixth form colleges with qts out of a workforce of about 10000.

    the ifl told me that qts meets the qualification requirement for membership but does not automatically give anyone qtls.
  9. jacob

    jacob Lead commenter

    I'm glad I am not the only one who finds the ramblings of Amanda incomprehensible, and has been on the receiving end of her vitriol. Maybe she works for the IfL, and is spying upon us?
  10. Thanks for #47 Amanda. I thought it useful.
  11. This is the bit that is niggling me:

    "Those entering the sector after 1 September 2007 will be required to gain QTLS or ATLS within two years, except where teaching solely in a Sixth Form College where QTS is deemed appropriate professional status"

    It is clearly saying that QTLS is the qualification for the post 16 sector EXCEPT in sixth form College where QTS is the appropriate qualification.

    Which essentially means that you can have QTLS but you will still be required to get QTS to be accepted as appropriately qualified.

    In effect that means that QTLS is not deemed the appropriate qualifcation for SFC.

    The same will be true of sixth forms in schools.

    Meanwhile the same document clearly states that QTS will recognised as equivelant to QTLS - so if you have QTS you will be deemed qualified to work anywhere in the post compulsary sector where QTLS is acceped ( and of course in the SFC sector where QTS is deemed appropriate anyway).

    Long winded way of saying
    QTS is equivelannt to QTLS but QTLS will not be recognised as equivelent in all areas of post 16 compulsary education.
  12. i was told qtls is not a qualification. can i ask why you keep calling it a qualification ***********?
  13. it seems obvious to me. if you come to work in a sixth form college after september this year you need qtls status through the ifl, unless you are registered with the gtc and have qts
  14. Jude Fawley

    Jude Fawley Star commenter

    What an unholy mess it all is. And to think, this is the education profession.

    A few questions:

    1: Anyone out there who gained a PGCE in Further Education in the mid 1990s? What does it actually say on your certificate? Does it read 'PGCE' or 'PGCE-FE'.

    2: So, as a Further Education (Post 16) lecturer who gained their PGCE (or PGCE-FE as I feel it should rightly say on the certificate)in the mid nineties one wouldn't need to worry about QTLS, as they already have it by virtue of time passed.Of course, they've never had QTS unless they've done another PGCE for Primary or Secondary.

    That person could then register with the IfL and become a Member, gaining 'teacher' status as opposed to Associate, 'trainer'status -I think.

    But, if they're not actually working as a lecturer, they can't pursue Continuing Professional Development and so, when it comes to licensing time they can't get licenced.Can they?

    3:Consider the Diplomas in Teaching Adult Literacy, ESOL and Numeracy i.e. University Certificate of Continuing Professional Development in Literacy,ESOL and Numeracy.

    These being part of the Foundation Degree in Teaching in Post-Compulsory Education.

    Usually run by a university at a college local to that university, in the middle of the day, in the middle of the week for employed F E lecturers(re LLUK,SVUK you can't get on it unless you're working for a 'recognised educational establishment' and have a PGCE or Cert Ed).

    The old City and Guilds 9281/2/3 . . . Literacy, ESOL and Numeracy Series is now basically worthless even if it was acquired it in the good old ALBSU days.These were once the starting benchmark I think, but now they are a Level 2 qualification.

    As with the old FENTO system, you can't get on these CPD courses unless you're working in paid employment at a recognised educational establishment teaching Literacy, ESOL or Numeracy (thankfully now the threshold hours of paid work have dropped to a minimum of thirty a year).

    I've seen these courses in operation and they are almost exclusively attended by employees of the college running the course. These attendees are either working at the college or in Community Education or at a local prison etc, delivering courses licenced by that college.

    There are no self-employed F E (Post-Compulsory)lecturers on the courses because they aren't employed by a 'recognised educational establishment'.

    You can't even gain access to the courses if you offer to work at the college on a voluntary (unpaid) basis,team teaching on Level 1 or Level 2 Basic Skills, Foundation Skills or Key Skills courses.

    The college will love you for offering your services free. A paid lecturer running such courses will love you because you'll help them cope with a class needing a lot of individual support and the statutory requirement of differentiation.

    But you'll not get on the CPD course because you can't show you're employed.

    Those on the CPD courses will use their paid employment as their statutory placement and will be allowed (possibly paid) time off teaching duties to attend the courses.

    If you're not actually working teaching in paid employment for a recognised educational establishment you can't build your CPD portfolio.

    Come licensing, you can't hope to get licenced.

    If you eventually have to have the licence to teach or you need QTLS status you've no chance.

    let's imagine you get a couple of hours teaching a week for one academic year and you can fit it around your job at Tesco.

    You might be lucky and get it in the evening or, in the daytime (subject to what shifts you're doing at Tesco et al) but, on the same day -and not at the same time as the CPD course?

    If you can get the day off your other job (the one you need to be able to live)you can do your bit of teaching and then do your bit of training hopefully.

    College managers love all this CPD because it improves their status. They probably get A1 or V1 status or 'Mentor' status or High Supremo Moral Behaviour Specialist Suited and Booted status.

    It's a con and designed to keep those in secure jobs in employment.

    Building themselves further away from the lowly sessional lecturer.

    And it's also seen as staff development and that attracts lots of funding.

    Isn't it a con?
  15. Whether QTS or QTLS are qualifications is irrelevant. The uissue remains the same. It is considered that teachers in SFC's should have QTS rather than QTLS.

    It appears that teachers with QTS can automatically apply for and recieve QTLS without any further ado if they wish to work in the post compulsary education sector.

    Whilst QTLS is acceptable in other areas of post compulsary education provision, QTS is considered appropriate for SFC teaching which appears to say those with QTLS will have to retrain to get QTS if they want to work in SFC's since QTLS is not
    (unless you can prove otherwise)

    QTS is considered the equivelant of QTLS but QTLS is not the equivalent of QTS.
  16. My teaching certificate is a very old beast and it says nothing at all about the age range or ranges I trained to teach.

    This caused considerable issues when I was working in FE and transferred to school. The GTC could not classify my qualification as FE because no such age range was stated.

    I therfore got QTS ( but that in fact I got based on the fact I was teaching before 1989 and before that you didnt need a teaching certificate anyway of you had a degree.

    Its a bit like the situation with QTLS now. If you were teaching before the important date you get QTLS but virtue of time served as a teacher/lecturer.
  17. In case the above is not crystal clear, my teaching certificate just says PGCE. It does not state a subject or an age range.
  18. "it seems obvious to me. if you come to work in a sixth form college after september this year you need qtls status through the ifl, unless you are registered with the gtc and have qts"

    I do not think this is obvious from the documentation at all. ( if it were I can think of a whole load of teachers from the post 16 sector - and post 14 for that matter , who would breathe a big sigh of relief because they would not have to obtain QTS.

    However, the documentation clearly states that QTS is considered appropriate in SFC's. It does not mention QTLS.

    So it appears to be the case that if you have QTLS you will have to obtain QTS. You cannot do this without retraining and obtaining the appropriate papers. You cannot register with the GTC with QTLS.

    This is sad because up until Septemeber if you were an FE qualified teacher you would have your qualifications recognised by most SFC even if you were not able to obtain QTS. QTS didnt matter.
    It seems now there is one less avenue of employment open to those who trained and have post compulsary teaching qualifications .

    On the other hand anyone who trained as a primary school teacher can transfer eithier into SFC or into any area of post 16 education and obtain QTLS and register with the IfL if required without any need to retrain or any questions being asked.

    Inequality reigns supreme with those who have QTLS being the lesser citizen in teaching. In other words, QTLS is second class.
  19. can you point out where you are getting your information from please *********** as it doesn't seem to be the regulations which i have copied out for you below, the qtls thing is only for new teachers, no-one in a sixth form college is required to have qts, you are wrong

    Registration of teachers
    1.?(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), every teacher must?
    (a) register with the IfL by 31st March 2008 or, in the case of any teacher appointed after 1st September 2007, within 6 months of the date of his appointment; and
    (b) maintain that registration continuously thereafter.
    (2) Sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to a teacher who is employed solely in a sixth form college and is registered with the GTC(E).
    (3) Sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to a teacher who is employed both in a school and a further education institution and is registered with the GTC(E), provided he commenced such dual employment and registered with the GTC(E) before 1st September 2007.
    (4) Every teacher referred to in sub-paragraphs (2) and (3) must provide the IfL with his GTC(E) registration details by 31st August every year.

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