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Qualified Teacher Learning and Skills (QTLS)

Discussion in 'Further Education' started by mortymoo, Jun 10, 2007.

  1. MDF says:
    In reply to the original poster, post-September 2007 we operate in a very different landscape in terms of the transferabilty of professional status across sectors. I am not sure that the 2007 regulations allow seamless transition from school to FE as has been suggested.

    I cannot link it because the site is down but the statutory instrument that introduces QTLS and lays down the qualifications elegible for conferment of QTLS specifically states that QTS will be recognised automatically for teachers who transfer from the school to the FE sector.

    I'll provide the link as soon as the site is up and/ or I am home from school this afternoon.

    QTLS relates to a different model of professionalism, appropriate to those working in teaching and learning outside of the <16 national curriculum.

    Most of us working in school sixth forms are in fact working outside the NC. Thats part of the issue. People like morty and myself are teachers of none NC subjects ansd many also teach vocational subjects also.
    Again you need to check your facts.

    Also , QTS is a conferred status just as QTLS is conferred so dont muddy the waters.

  2. "QTLS relates to a different model of professionalism, appropriate to those working in teaching and learning outside of the <16 national curriculum"

    I think this is a No morty! But then Pete and I both told you that a couple of days ago.

    I would still try what I suggested - based on the statement of equivalent linked above.
  3. " There is no requirement for teachers in sixth form provision to hold QTS status, all sixth form provision is funded by LSCs, not LEAs. Individual employers may make specific requirements, the majority of sixth form colleges do not - unless you disagree with the sixth form college Principals I have been in discussion with this week. Sixth form provision is not maintained by local education authorities (I refer you to section 134 of the 2002 Education Act).

    No FE teachers work in sixth form colleges, sixth form provision is dealt with separately within the 2002 Education Act. Section 72 of the Act applies. No 'FE Teachers' work in schools - you either work in FE or you don't."

    I am at a los to understand this one at all.

    Firstly it is suggested that you dont need QTS to work in sixth forms. Then it goes on to talk about a different beast (a sixth form college)

    Finally it ends up saying that no FE teachers are working in sixth forms in schools.

    So either you dont exist Morty or you are not working in a school sixth fom!
    You and many like you.

    How do you have a discussion or clarify any situation with someone who has so much to say and waffles it and confuses the situation that no straight answer is ever fothcoming?

    This person works for the IfL. I would suggest the IfL are equally misinformed, dismissive and throw a load of bunkum around - and wont or cant give a straight answer.

    Try your union Morty. They might have more information!

    I asked the ATL about the transfer of QTS to QTLS some two years ago and was told then, as now, no teacher with QTS will be required to retrain in any way to work in FE. I have that in writing.

    So draw your own conclusions vis MDF. You are a bright enough girl ( yes I say girl again;-)). I dont need to say anything.
  4. MDF wrote:
    "I am not sure that the 2007 regulations allow seamless transition from school to FE as has been suggested."

    Further to my previous comments the following extract is from the "Further Education Teachers'Qualifications ( England) Regulations 2007

    From the DfES website Implimentation of Regulations para 21 as follows:

    "21. DfES intends that schools Qualified Teacher Status (QTS) should be professionally recognised in 6th form colleges and the wider FE sector as meeting QTLS requirements. DfES is discussing suitable arrangements for registration of teachers in 6th form colleges with the General Teaching Council and the Institute for Learning. The process regarding this will be made clear in the final guidance and/or regulations."

    I think that pretty clearly states that teachers who get QTS will be conferred with QTLS in a seamless transition.

  5. Am I the only one on this thread to see a difference between teaching 4 to 11 year olds, 11 to 16 year olds and > 16 year olds ?

    I would not want to jump in and teach different age groups without some 'transfer' training module which covered essential age specific practices and insight into the different age groups learning requirements.

    If you do not agree look up pedagogy, andragogy, hert...agogy, geon ,,, agogy etc.
  6. Point to note is that there are different rules for different dates of joining plus the significant dates are:

    Joined teaching before 2001

    Joined before Sep 2007

    Joining Sep 2007 or after

    Further details may be found at:


    and from the SVUK web site.

    Regards, Paul EngEd

  7. I have been told by 'Oriel' GTP guru, that QTS only applies to under 16's in schools and that the PGCE post compulsory is already the 'right' qualification for those working with post 16 in school sixth forms. Obviously those with QTS can also teach in sixth forms. I enquired about the GTP, because my subject is not one that would be possible to do. Told I don't need it. I'm paid as qualified, have TLR too. BUT, there is an anomolie in crossing threshold.
  8. It isn't the right qualification in a school sixth form, because there is not a parity of pay. QTS opens up the door to different pay scales such as post threshold, ATS, and fast track etc which all lead to more money.

    Without QTS your promotion prospects are reduced, you have less progression opportunities within the secondary school setting, even if your Head compensates by paying you a TLR. TLRs are discretionary too, and can be taken away.

    In the end, QTS is needed and some LEAs insist on unqualified teachers becoming qualified within a certain period.

  9. Also, Paul HB as an FE teacher working in a school sixth form I am often required to teach in the lower school to cover for absent teachers. It is considered perfectly acceptable for me to do this, without 'transfer' training. And to be honest, it really isn't that different, it's just the emphasis is much more on managing behaviour.

  10. "Am I the only one on this thread to see a difference between teaching 4 to 11 year olds, 11 to 16 year olds and > 16 year olds ?"

    Well.... the DfES are absolutely adamant that having QTS conferred for training in the early years sector ( FS and KS1) definately qualifies you automatically to teach post 16 or post 7 or post 11 ( take your pick).

    The same applies to all teachers with QTs, no matter what age range you trained to teach you can move smoothly and with no retraining into any other sector.

    The only group of teachers who are not allowed to make such a transition are FE teachers, which is inconsistent since FE teachers are effectively the only group trained on a model of androgogy ( transferrable skills of teaching) rather than a pedogogy ( age specific teaching skills).

    That said most FE teachers are trained to teach in the age range 14+ now because of the voc ops and the government moves to specialist diplomas which will allow a set of pathways in FE from 14+ ( not as this is new and FE teachers have long since been working in the age range.)

    There might have been a time I would have argued that there were differences but in twenty years of teaching now I have taught reception infants, primary school up to year 6, throughout secondary school ( 11 - 16) and in FE ( post 14 and post 16 to adult HE and FE ( 16 + - my oldest student was nearly 90). I can genuinely say I have found few real differences in teaching or clasroom management.

    In fact nowadays sometimes teaching adults ( especially in mixed ability and wide age ranges) can be more difficult both in terms of task differentiation and class management that teaching a bunch of bottom set disaffected 14 /15 year olds
    ( year 10's )

    I have done them all and was trained in FE because I was working in FE ( post 14 vocs and post 16 A level ) at the time ( my teaching certificate is FE/ secondary - a none existant beast now)
    I do have QTS though because I was teaching before 1989 but I got that as an FE teacher under the 2001 regulations.

  11. I agree with morty, most FEc teachers ( any decent teacher whatever qualification ) can handle under 16.
  12. The plot thickens all round. So GTP is going to be withdrawn for those who work in sixth forms?

    I have heard a rumour to this effect and this will especially affect those who teach post 16 and KS 4 ( GCSE or 14+ voc ops) in none traditional subjects ( psychology, H&SC and oth er BTec/ speiclaist diploma type levels and subjects.

  13. This is beginning to remind me of the mess created in 1989 when the majority of Fec teachers working in schools found themselves unbqualified overnight!

    Except this is worse. Two registration boaides, two sets of qualifed statuses, upteen areas within the educationsal sector.

    Lots of different cut off dates to decide who and what is recognised as "qualified".

    The words **** ups and breweries come to mind.
  14. From post 19. I am still waiting for you to reply MDF.

    MDF says:
    "QTS does not equal QTLS, end of - and you will be unable to link to any source stating otherwise."

    This is from the LSC website:

    "Qualified Teacher Learning and Skills (QTLS)
    Qualified Teacher Learning and Skills (QTLS) is a new award for teachers in the learning and skills sector.

    It covers both taught and practical skills, and is the equivalent of Qualified Teacher Status (QTS) in schools.

    QTLS will be introduced in full from September 2007."

    Source: http://www.successforall.gov.uk/index.cfm?pg=317

    From the LSC website :

    There is no equivelance , end of? Really MDF? Care to explain why the LSC ( one of your fave organisations too isnt it?) says otherwise?
  15. MDF


    The information you cite from the LSC is (i) partial, (ii) dated and (iii) not accurate - but such is the risk of trying to offer abridged descriptions via the web.

    I'm not sure where you draw your conclusion that the LSC is one of my 'favourite organisations', you would do well to limit your responses to the facts and not make such inferences.
  16. I have found myself in similar situation: Language degree, PGCE in FE, job in state secondary school where I became Head of Department (4 years), moved to independant school, where amongst other things I introduced and set up a teacher trainer programme and mentored students (5 years), career break. I have now started teaching languages in my son's primary school. I have run into this seemingly unsolvable problem of QTS. I don't know where to start to get QTS; it feels like I'm hitting a brick wall with every telephone call, with a selection of the most unhelpful people I have ever spoken to. Surely I don't need another PGCE, having done one already, which, like you I worked very hard for AND having done the job very well (according to my references) for 9 years. Where can I go to get an overview of advice? Can anyone help me please because I can't believe I'm at the brink of being forced to end my teaching career.

    Did you get any help from your union? How have things worked out for you?
  17. Hi Arkidd

    I don't know if this is still correct but the University of Gloucestershire were doing a QTS by assessment only route. Worth having a look I think.
  18. I have QTS and have been teaching 11-18. However I am thinking of taking up an FE college post this term. The up-to-date guidance from IfL (revised August 2007) can be found at:


    "Teachers holding QTS
    Teachers holding QTS will not be required to gain another teaching qualification. Those entered the sector before 1 September 2007 will not be obliged to gain QTLS or ATLS but as with other teachers it will be encouraged. Those entering the sector after 1 September 2007 will be required to gain QTLS or ATLS within two years, except where teaching solely in a Sixth Form College where QTS is deemed appropriate professional status if linked to ongoing GTC(E) registration."

    I think this demonstrate that QTS and QTLS are not interchangeable in either direction.
  19. I would beg to differ on that slightly.

    The following is quite clear:
    "Teachers holding QTS
    Teachers holding QTS will not be required to gain another teaching qualification."

    In other words QTS = QTLS but not the other way round.

    Evidence for this can further be found in that the IfL are registering teachers who hold QTS for automatic membership and the conferrment of QTLS.

    The GTC ( in any guise or language) is not accepting QTLS status for such conferrment of QTS.
  20. Of course its also a broken promise. I do hope no one was daft enough to take a chance and hold their breath expecting as was promised that QTLS would be a transferrable status for working in post 16 sector in sixth form or a sixth form college.

    It seems that even SFC's are being closed as route to employment for FE teachers.

    I feel sorry for FE teachers sold down the river again.

    I was lucky I got QTS . I can work in FE or school. Not so for the poor people who trained for the 14 + sector

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