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Discussion in 'Overseas trained teachers' started by artbot, Jul 1, 2006.
Oh, and I'm an EU national, UK trained with QTS.
It's perhaps not just the hoops for QTS, but the fact that you can't seem to get it without the support of a head teacher. A head hires an UQ teacher on the cheap, telling that person that she will help him get QTS, then reneges on the deal, so the teacher is no longer able to work in the UK after a certain amount of time, you see.
BTW, I feel the same way about NQTs having to give up teaching forever if they don't get their induction in in the first year. It's unfair.
That's not acually true. NQTs can begin their induction year at any time once they have QTS. They can only work 4 terms of supply once they start supply before they have to begin induction. If they have no way of starting induction after they have done supply, then they cannot teach in the state sector until they secure a post in which they can start induction and then they have 5 years in which to complete it.
Maybe you should just take the tests, after all they are very easy and with credentials such as yours you shouldn?t have any trouble passing them.
I also think that anyone who cannot pass them should seriously consider their career choice, Basic Maths is a necessity as no matter what you teach you will always need to analyse reports and interpret data of your own pupils.
Basic English is also relevant especially when report writing and correcting pupil text.
As for ICT any teacher that thinks they can avoid its use needs to think again it is everywhere!!!!
Good luck if you do decide to take the tests (not that you will need it).
Get a job in a non-state school. Then QTS doesn't matter.
My South African colleague and I refuse to get QTS as we don't need it (can even get threshold without it).
ONce I have my spouse visa and no longer need my work permit, there will be no reason to waste my oh-so-precious leisure time obtaining QTS.
Especially as I've already had to prove professional competence elsewhere.
been smugly reading all this stuff about QTS thinking it didn't affect me in a bad way as i'm quite happy to get it etc (i'm still living o/seas and will do anything to get job/work permit/residency) as my daughter is halfBritish and I want to move back to the UK before she starts school...
HOWEVER I have just been informed by the teaching agency I was hoping to sign with that because I taught for a few weeks on day-to-day supply in London during 2002, I will NEVER get a job/work permit etc because my 4 years are up and I have not gained QTS...
what the ...???? i worked with an agency back then, it was not mentioned. i moved to Scotland and taught there then returned to Australia - haven't been back to England since early 2003 (except to pass through Heathrow)
so now i can't get a job, can't get a work permit, can't give my dd the opportunity to grow up in Britain, be near her British family and experience the other half of her background/culture...
but why? it's not as tho i'm a bad teacher or lazy or rebelling against the processes or anything...i'd happily do the damn folio...
but because i didn't understand that those 3 letters joined together meant anything...
i started to read this, but then jumped to the end.. as there was too much stuff going on.. if anyone who is a qualified teacher outside the UK, but wants to get a QTS in the UK, please try to apply for it with GTC, general teaching council for England. This is what I did and I have my QTS now, don;t have to do an induction.. so this could be just this close for you too..
to get a teaching job though in the UK is a harder nut to crack...I need help with that too.. so if you can help me, please let me know...
Have a look at 102 pict and see if that applies. Talk to the GTC, they may be able to help.
QTS is absurd when you have the mathmatic equivalent of dyslexia, like I do!
I actually did my BA Hons here in the UK at the University of Surrey, but because I did my Post Graduate Diploma of Education in Australia I will also have to complete QTS after being here teaching for four years. If I had completed my PGCE here instead of in Western Australia I would have QTS, but I didn't, so although some good points exist to your original argument, how do you think I feel?
Furthermore, in order for me to complete the Dip Ed in WA, I had to provide evidence of what exactly I studied in my BA Hons Degree before I was accepted to complete the Dip Ed.
Yes, QTS is ridiculous. By the time I must get it according to the powers that be, I will have been teaching for 10 years! But, like another 'poster' pointed out, you chose to come to the UK to teach, so if you are so unhappy, then I would suggest you head back to Oz.....
Victoria (An Australian/English/American!)
ozpom73 have you been teaching here for 4 years in a full time capacity or as a supply teacher? I'm amazed you have been teaching here 4 years before someone thought to mention you would need QTS?
Well I have been teaching since 1994...and now have to get QTS here. i AM PANICING ABOUTTHE TESTS. i AM USELESS AT MATHS. mY ict skills are fairly rubbish also. Panic...panic...and I am in a PRU so my head has to send me out of school for 1 day a week. Not ideal
Hi everyone-I started this post because no one will challenge this stupid QTS tests- sorry for not talking but we have been on holiday in Australia and so I can tell u the latest-it looks like we are going back after 3 years of slog and still being on the unqualified teaching status we cant do it anymore-not because we don?t want to because Australia is EASIER. I just enquired to Queensland Education and they said if u are from Britain with teaching qualifications all u have to do is to present those qualifications and guess what you are eligible to teach!!!!!!! NO QTS|!
So there u are with a Masters of Education (which is ignored in Britain), the pay will be better but I am going to find out exactly so I will let u know-sad all this-we really did want to stay but I don?t see why we HAVE TO do this QTS when in Australia YOU DON?T! and what with the better housing, weather and we can buy a house outright in Australia, rather than pay mortgage for another 29 years in a house that?s half the size, convince us why we shouldn?t go?-The British Government has made it as hard as possible to stay for overseas trained teachers and until they wake up and stop arguing about the NHS, there will be more teachers leaving let alone British teachers who if they can successfully navigate the visa requirements can actually teach and be REWARDED,
Ok to answer some of those questions-
1. RE:?How many times does it have to be said BRITISH TEACHERS HAVE TO PASS QTS?-
Yes but we as overseas teachers have already done training and QTS is not necessary in Australia-so why should we-if u have done it fine but isn?t the idea that the British Government wants to KEEP teachers or not!
?You should have no rights or say in a country that you're not a national of!!!?
Actually I am British born but that?s not important-its not to do with rights its not right overseas trained teachers have to be humiliated especially if they have been teaching for lets say 20 years to do these stupid tests-they don?t prove that u are a good teacher-Britain has to make it easier if they want overseas teachers to stay-they say? yes we are desperate for overseas teachers -oh wait we will make it as difficult as possible if u actually want to stay!!!!!
2. Hello hampycamper-I would love for u to join forces in property developing- I am still going into it but I would be happy to discuss please email at firstname.lastname@example.org
3. Wile7 ?good idea but we tried in Melbourne for private-nothing-we tried in the UK-50 jobs we went for-nothing-cant understand it-the only trouble is there is more work like choir, sports, orchestra, after school programs-so it might be too exhausting-not sure-we could try again I suppose. Any suggestions for music posts?
4. Kimmyjus- very good, spot on!
5. Invincible- therefore there needs to be a European policy on this-Is Germany in shortage though? Still it shouldn?t make a difference-them and the QTS is a discriminatory policy. ?Each country has its own regulations and if you don't like it, try something different and stop moaning about it.?
That is really unbelievable attitude- how did women get the vote-what about the civil rights movement-that attitude is very disturbing-
?Oh, and I'm an EU national, UK trained with QTS.?
And if they asked u to kotow as well would u do that?
6. MissNinaP -?Maybe you should just take the tests, after all they are very easy and with credentials such as yours you shouldn?t have any trouble passing them?.
NO NO NO-we should NOT have to-I have no time to do this-they are not easy for some particularly if u are an arts teacher or music-we isn?t there a test on art or music-answer that one-I like to see if u would think it easy if did music theory (even basic) or identify art periods including artist, period and date-would u find that easy then?-what about complementary colours, warm/cool colour theory, the golden mean, etc etc-would u have time to do this?
?I also think that anyone who cannot pass them should seriously consider their career choice, Basic Maths is a necessity as no matter what you teach you will always need to analyse reports and interpret data of your own pupils.?
How does this apply to teaching music or art? Should maths teachers do basic music or art-u would say well of course not-why we should be ?tested? at all is beyond me-what is the point of a Diploma of Education that state clearly u are eligible to teach!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why should we be able to teach in Australia but not in Britain and be forced back just because of this?
?Basic English is also relevant especially when report writing and correcting pupil text.?
I have just completed a Masters of Education-how could I do this without basic English-How could I have passed a Bachelor Degree and a Diploma of Education without Basic English-we don?t they test us on driving skills, how to communicate, how to dress, how to read, u could go on and on testing-what is a higher degree for then?
7. pict-what can I say it?s a joke,,,,,,,I feel for u
8. tanar-yes but it?s the tests we object to NOT the folio-u should have an ongoing teaching folio anyway-yes sure come and watch us teach-assess if following the National curriculum etc BUT NO TESTS-its humiliating.
9. ozpom73-?how do you think I feel??
like going back?
?ut, you chose to come to the UK to teach, so if you are so unhappy, then I would suggest you head back to Oz.....?
Hello British Government-that?s what will happen, not good enough!
10. armidale3-panic ?exactly-
cant believe that post "Link: Overseas Trained Teachers: Updated"-its getting even harder! We dont want to go after 4 years-we have come all the way here with family settled into schools and now they say get lost-how ungrateful-Is there anyone out there that can help with a protest? I mean Blair not looking so good now what with top up fees and other education issues.........I will be telling everyone (in Australia) who wants to teach in England, dont as you are not really wanted-Is it the Government wants to save money by keeping u on the unqualified scale? Or is to have a conveyor belt of teachers who dont know how hard it is to teach here-the image of Pink Floyd comes to mind! How are we ment to survive? I mean these QTS tests will not make u a better teacher?
Lol - yes, Pink Floyd!!!
I don't care about tests: I would do them if I could. It's the 4 years that have screwed it all up for me. And just NO information - unlike all the other countries I've applied to teach in, who require registration and send out an information pack, England do it BACKWARDS...keeping overseas teachers ignorant (the agencies are probably in on it to, judging by the way they sit on the life-altering issue of QTS and don't bother informing their OTTs) and not having registration until AFTER they've been teaching????? What?
Like I said, I would do any test, jump through any hoop - but you can't beat time and unknown to me it has been ticking away...
Hey artbot: just wanted to say, only one other educational bureacratic issue has frustrated me as much as QTS and it was in QUEENSLAND...
I trained in a Qld uni but because my final internship was in a private school, could not gain their equiv. to QTS. And as my first teaching post in Qld was also in a private school, again I could not get this G1 rating (or whatever it's called these days).
Now I have returned from the UK and am trying to get short term supply in Queensland (only want short term as I am trying to return to UK) I have found that I am not allowed to teach for anything longer than day-to-day because I have not got this 'rating'. To get it I have to write an essay and go to an interview before a panel (nothing to do with getting jobs) and explain why I should be allowed to teach here.
Even though it's a pain I would have done it, except that they dish out interview times that cannot be altered and if you happen to phone to postpone one (had chickenpox) then they abuse you down the phone and threaten you that you 'won't get another one until the end of the year or even next year'
Well that's GREAT considering I hope to be in the UK by then. And there goes my chance to gain some longer term (than day-to-day) experience before I head back to the UK!
It may be different for you as you have been teaching for longer. I just wanted to let you know the troubles I have had (they seem to follow me about??? Maybe I should take the hint and resign myself to the fact that teaching is not for me?)
Oh, and Qld have this ridiculous idea that instead of advertising job vacancies in an adult/professional manner via a TES method they just dole them out like party bags...you might get lucky, you might not, but there appears to be VERY limited capacity for actually CHOOSING where you would like to teach. I can't look at my local school, which is in danger of closing down due to poor staffing and apply. I have to earn points by teaching in the desert for a decade, and only then might I be allowed to teach in my local area.
So jobs are not gained on merit. You get a job because you have the points, or because you are manipulating the system and trying to earn more points.
I had a massive argument with a man in the Dept office regarding this: what is so bad about teachers - ADULT PROFESSIONALS - actually having a say in where they would like to be?
There are some fantastic independent schools in the SE Area and CathEd schools as well, and that is where I would stay if I was a teacher in Queensland. I've heard that most of the other states are not as restrictive.
It is true, every place has it's issues.
Pict not good at all-G1 rating-hum well-I have trained in Victoria -have been registered but then been in the UK since 2003-thanks for telling it-is supply plentiful in QLD? What do mean by "I have to earn points by teaching in the desert for a decade, and only then might I be allowed to teach in my local area"-are u speaking literally or is this a requirement"-will I be able to get a teaching post in Music?
could u explain or could u guide me to a site that explains:"So jobs are not gained on merit. You get a job because you have the points, or because you are manipulating the system and trying to earn more points"
"There are some fantastic independent schools in the SE Area and CathEd schools as well, and that is where I would stay if I was a teacher in Queensland"
yes I agree but how do u go about this applying for this?.Looking at goodna area/brookfield/moggill.
WOW can't believe all I am reading. I have taught in Aussie schools for 10 yrs came here nearly 4 yrs ago to teach in UK and love it - sure the curriculum is antiquated but hey there you go you come to a new place you do the things they have! At least I have the fortune of being able to bend it slightly to give the chn more valuable teaching. RE QTS I had not one ounce of trouble. I did the three tests sure they are an evil I could have done without and I balked about doing a competency test when my old school had seen fit to employ me for 10 yrs and I was apparently competent then! But I did them and they were using an Aussie term - piece of **** - really didnt test anything other then my ability to find the place and click a few buttons. Also had a lovely agency that we went to so that I could fast track it through QTS - If it werent for E Qualitas I would be still bitching and moaning like the rest of you. THe very helpful people there took our 300 hundred pounds sent out a competent assessor who decided if we were able to do it fast or slow with the head teachers input. Once they decided to fast track me I collected my evidence which she helped me go through with a fine tooth comb - she viewed a few lessons to add to my collection and then I had the moderator come out and watch lessons and look at my file and have discussions with me and my SMT rep. All in all it took 2 months from start to finish. It's done and I am qualified. Sure its a pain in the **** and sure you have to run a few hoops but lets be honest folks. If someone was now going to Australia all the rules are changing and they would have to go through registration in quite a few states. Maybe not the test but at least registration. Also I would be very worried if they were to let in some of the said 'teachers' I have seen over here into Australia without some form of monitoring. So fair dues I don't mind doing that here at least I know that all said and done I'm a damn good teacher and I have nothing to hide about what I can do!
That is not my point. I don't care about doing the test.
My point is: I arrived in London, ignorant as every other Australian teacher of the English education system, registered with an agency who did not mention QTS (and are STILL perpetuating the ignorance by telling Aussie teachers that QTS is not necessary/nothing to worry about/don't bother doing it as evidenced by a friend's experience in the last few weeks), worked for them briefly then LEFT England and the English education system to live in Scotland and then Australia.
It has only been in the last couple of months that I have again had to delve into the English education system again so I can return to Australia and have discovered that I can never go back.
I am without a doubt that had I stayed in England longer I would have discovered the QTS issue and I ASSURE you I would have fulfilled the requirements WITHOUT HESITATION. I do not have a problem with the tests: so what? Every education system has it's mad hoops that must be jumped through. I would be concerned if they did not.
However, providing a blanket rule whereby teachers who taught for a dozen days, were not informed in any way (unlike the induction information provided by many other countries) of QTS or related issues, then left the country completely are BARRED FOR LIFE from ever getting a teaching job in England is bizarre and has had a devastating impact on my life, my daughter's and her family in Britain.
Bitching and moaning maybe: easy to say when you've been lucky. Naturally it's a piece of **** when it's been handed to you on a platter.
Handed to you on a platter - thats a bit harsh! I'm an NQT and believe me PGCE is not platter-like!
As for QTS - its just the rules! The same as any other profession. So few professional qualifications are internationally recognised anyway. Yes its annoying but to be honest Lanabunny is right the tests are really not that big a deal. I certainly don't think they're worth re-re-locating for - is that really the reason youre going back??
Not I - quite happy with my lot in life and actually I researched the requirements before I came to the country and was quite aware that some hoop jumping needed to be done - but I had four years to do it in. To be honest its a bit of blind faith if you just expect to turn up and have everything sorted. I am genuinely quite suprised by the UK bashing and most distressed that some adults find it difficult to do some research for themselves but rather rely on others to tell them what to do. I hope thats not the only thing they do that for or life is going to be mighty difficult!