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QTS -its just ridiculous

Discussion in 'Overseas trained teachers' started by artbot, Jul 1, 2006.

  1. hope i never have someone like you working in my music dept.... whinge, whinge, whinge, moan, moan, moan....

    only came for the £££££s right?? ahh, poor you, my heart bleeds...

  2. No Prohammer, I came here for my husband. In fact, I lost a lot of £££££££s coming here, and continue to earn about a fifth of my previous salary.

    It's not about the money -- if it were, we wouldn't be in teaching in the first place.

    If you can't say anything constructive, please go onto some other forum. Clearly this matter does not concern you personally and you have no advice to offer, so your imput, if one could call it such, is not valuable in the slightest.
  3. QTS is relevant to Peri Music staff - county music services (where they still exist) employ some or all peris on Qualified scales on Teachers' Pay & Conditions. A self-employed co-operative near here pays £5 per hour more to staff with QTS than without.

    You may argue whether or not it is relevant to how they do their job, but it is a fact of employment life that peris with QTS are better off than peris without.

    Having said that, there is a way round the unqualified scale issue. One of the best teachers for whom I have line management responsibility does not hold QTS - we are paying them on the top end of the unqualified scale, and are matching their salary to the equivalent M rate. We also have on staff HoDs who are unqualified - but are very good teachers. We have received assurance from our LEA that, although not eligible for TLR, they can be paid exactly the same sum as the equivalent TLR.
  4. 1. Agencies can pay you higher if they want to. I'm PGCE PCET but being paid the same as my partner who has QTS, I don't.
    2. It is the Head teachers discretion what s/he pays you. They can pay you on the qualified pay scale if they want to. As far as a I know you can't go through threshold without QTS though.
    3. The Skills tests are the same as any other teacher in the UK has to do, and as someone said earlier the same as those with my qualification have to do if I wanted to gain QTS.
    4. Why do you assume that because you come from another country that you don't have to qualify to this countries requirements.. How, bizarre, I wouldn't move to Oz and be naive enough to think I could just walk in and start teaching, I'd expect to have to do a conversion course and prove my qualifications etc.

    Don't get me wrong I understand where you can coming from, I'm UK FE trained and consequently wasn't awarded QTS, yet I've found myself teaching KS4 in an FE college environment even though my secondary counterparts, who are teaching the same subject, level to the same age are getting much more money.

  5. I don't think anyone is complaining about qualifying to this country's requirements. What UK-trained teachers don't seem to understand is that OTTs are required to find a teaching position FIRST, and only then can they even sit any QTS exams. And schools don't want to hire someone who will necessitate going through reams of paperwork with the DfeS.

    One LEA even had the honestly to tell me that most schools won't bother to look at my application--it goes straight into the bin. And after two years and over 75 applications with only two interviews, I think that is indeed the case.

    It's not as though we can just find a testing centre, pay the fees, and take the test. If only it were that easy!
  6. ?in order to be a teacher in this country you must be able to meet the minimum requirements. Everyone has to do these tests not just overseas teachers.?

    Not everybody! EU teachers just need to submit their teaching qualifications from their country and the GTC sends them their QTS certificate, free of charge of course!!! They don?t need to ask NARIC to verify their documents. Unlike British teachers, they don?t even have to sit the tests or serve an induction year. It doesn?t matter if their English is appalling; the agencies just check that they are EU passport holders and send them to schools without caring about anything. Even if a school complains the agencies keep on sending them: this year we had the same Polish teacher who couldn?t read ORT books, struggling to read Jack and the Beanstalk to our Nursery class -the nursery nurse had to lead the activities for the rest of the day!

    This is what I found on the GTC website:

    ?EEA nationals who are recognised as qualified school teachers in an EEA member state, may apply for Qualified Teacher Status (QTS) in England under the terms of Council Directive 89/48/EEC, without the need for further training. Teachers who gain QTS through this route are exempt from the requirement to serve a statutory induction period.?

    If you want to verify this information go to: http://www.gtce.org.uk/reg/obtaining_qts/010EEA
  7. Lily.A. this is my problem with the system also.

    I am happy to conform to the requirements of the country i have made the decision to teach in, i have done the work, and got QTS. I do see the sense in this - even though OTT don't get the time allocation to do QTS standards (like BTs) and induction standards (like NQTs), we do it while teaching a full load.

    It is the inequality between commonwealth countries (and others) and EU countries, that really works me up!! If anything could change this inequality is the thing i would like to be addressed.
  8. I believe the issue of EU teachers is something of a red herring. The UK government's hands are tied on this - freedom of movement of labour is a central principle of the single market. The same applies in all areas of employment, for example, medicine. EU trained doctors need show no evidence even of the ability to use English. Non-EU doctors, my wife included, are required to undertake both high level English examinations and medical competence tests.

    I am sure that, if the government and regulatory bodies were free to do so, all overseas trained personnel would be treated equally (ie be required to show that they meet the UK standards). The fact that EU citizens cannot be so required is merely a, possibly unintended, side-effect of the single market.
  9. If you are an English qualified teacher on the GTP you are not permitted to teach in Australia (apparently you can teach in New Zealand though) and then check out the pay scale for qualified teachers in England compared to Australia. Swallow your pride and take the test...

    The following is what is stated by the department of eduction and training....

    a formal assessment of your academic qualifications;

    probity checks including national criminal records checks and employment checks;

    if necessary, an assessment of your English language skills;

    participation in the Pre-employment Program for

    Overseas Trained Teachers which includes:
    - a seven day orientation inlcuding a two day workshop and a five day school placement;
    - a five day in-school assessment;
    - a personal suitability interview; and
    - a five or 10 day extension phase for recommended applicants.

  10. Hi,
    I believe that this problem is reciprocated. I am teaching in NSW, Australia and am having to do the New Teachers Accreditation, despite having done QTS. Don't think its just you!!!
    Its a pain, insulting at times, and annoying, but I have to do it to secure future employment in the state. Worse still, in Australia, if you have taught in another state then come into NSW there are rules about having to do it too! And if you had a break for a couple of years in NSW then went back to work, again you'd have to do it.
  11. Re 5: invincible: what extra stuff does one have to do to teach in DE?

    (I realise exact requirements would be notified to applicants from the various Kulturministerien of each Land, but what did you do?)
  12. Interesting to hear of your troubles with the system. I have taught in London for around 10 of the past 16 years. I maintain my General Teachers Council registration and drop in and out of both the NZ and UK systems. In 1991 I was granted a Licence to teach in the Uk so long as I continued to work in the school for which the Licence was issued. I had to go and sit GCSE maths as I did not have this in Nz. It took a year of nightschool. I passed with a C. That was enough to meet the requirement to BEGIN the process. Next was 2 years of ongoing training at both the local LEA and school. The DP led me through the history of British Ed. I was paid reasonably well, my 4 years of teaching in NZ was enough to move me up the scale a fair way. It was liveable. After 2 years of training and full time teaching I was granted QTS. Over the next 2 years I completed a Post Grad Diploma in my subject area at Middlesex Uni. After 4 Years I was Deputy HOD and had earned the respect of my Head teacher. I was no fly by nighter.
    I returned to NZ for a years break, after being given a years unpaid leave. I came back for another year after that to the UK, and worked at the same school. Inner London pay was always double that in NZ and the professional development oppotunities were wonderful. I had a pretty tough time of that first couple of years, but once in the system it was more than worth it. I had the same form class for 4 years. I loved it.
    Returning to NZ was tough too, a new Teachers council was in place and the requirements were very rigorous. Police checks come with the territory. I struggled with the low budget kiwi system and pined for my big budget London school. Went back to London in 2001 stayed 3 years, passed through the threshold and earned heaps. KS3 cordinator.
    What you do not seem to understand is that the old alliances are shifting. As a periptetic you are not in the system. You need to get a full time position, permanant if possible and do the time.
    Europe is wide open and I have seen dozens of ozzies and kiwis and saffas go through the schools I have worked. More eastern europeans have arrived since the widening of the EU. **** the poms off too much and you will all do yourselves out of work.
    Go drive a van or shift houselots for peanuts if you dont like it. Agencies have screwed schools for a decade or more. All those travellers milking it for years and years. Look in the TES and apply directly. Build up a rep and get to know the players. Its the same everywhere. NZ is a low wage economy and if you want to work in Auckland expect a high rent low pay ratio. We squatted in London for as long time.
    The chance to go and work in another country is not a right it is a privelage. I maintain my contacts and expect to return again, chill guys, wise up or your kids will not get the privelage. Start a band and get famous instead. You will make heaps.....
  13. last post very interesting-might do property developing instead-not much call for that in New Zealand or Australia!! Well not getting the cheap stuff at auctions!!
    PS I tried the band thing in 90's "This Quiet Earth"- [played on the ABC, 3RRR)-but band members TOO impatient-so we broke up!!! and that was that!
  14. Post 63 - Poutine,

    It's frightening to think you are a teacher - are you crazy?????? Sue the government - they will laugh at you.

    FYI european countries have many priviledges that commonwealth countries don't have (not that I agree with that I think we were crazy to drop good commonwealth countries such as aus for the **** in europe such as france) such as being able to come and go and work here as they please. Us Brits have the same advantage. The fact that they have auto QTS is just part of that system.

    How many times does it have to be said BRITISH TEACHERS HAVE TO PASS QTS TOO! So how can you call that racism????

    Please, please, please read some of the UK forums to see that us Brits are just as p off about the situation as you foreigners and we have more right to be because it's our country. You should have no rights or say in a country that you're not a national of!!!
  15. Hi Artbot,
    Property development seems to be flavour of the decade here. Dunno about the cheap stuff at auctions but every man and his dog seems to have a few renters, to reduce the tax,and play the negative gearing card. I learned something from the Jewish investors and that was to buy and buy and buy....never sell...seems that property ladder puts that to rest. I bought a dump in inner auckland in the mid 80,s its earned me as much as my salary each year in appreciation since. Got hit by a jerk in a 4x4 one London summer, sued his butt and got 40k. Bought there too. Its trebled in value since.
    With such a huge population over there and so many scummy old places needing the do up you may well be on a winner. Let me know and I will sharpen my chisels and come help you. I guess my luck was being a Design Tech teacher. Play it for all its worth and take the long view. You do have my sympathy. Good luck....and cheers.
  16. Wile7

    Wile7 New commenter

    artbot - move into private schools (in the UK or back in Oz at Scotts or Joeys or Redlands or.....etc). All that **** goes out the window and they pay you for your skills and ability to teach (based on your degree). If you do not perform you go; if you do perform and deliver the results and get 'stuck in' (and you should given your confidence) then you can have a great career with good salary.....it ain't easy but its challenging, rewarding and great fun. And no QTS BS. David
  17. Nojiggerchick;

    You didn't read my posting very well. I never said a word about racism. Nor have I complained about doing what it takes to get QTS status. I complained because the programme I'm REQUIRED to go through DOESN'T EXIST.

    If I am a legal resident here and pay my taxes, then I do indeed have the right to complain.

    And thanks for the lovely comment about the French, since I hold legal residency in that country as well. Who is it that was talking about racism?

    Furthermore, it's frightening to think that YOU'RE a teacher. Your spelling and grammar skills are beyond poor.

    You might want to consult a GCSE English textbook in future.
  18. Personally, I have nothing against gaining QTs. I would love to do it , but I find that many schools don't want to support you because as soon as you get it they have to pay you more.
  19. The process of QTS could definitely be considered as racist as people are being discriminated against because of their place of origin. While citizens of some countries simply have to show degree equivalence (for example through UKNARIC) and others have to show this degree equivalence PLUS undergo an assessment process, there will always be a case for racism. Teachers in all countries undergo their own form of QTS and upon arrival in the UK many teachers undertake several years' teaching experience in order to become familiar with the NC. I find it odd that the UK education system is more than willing to employ foreign teachers as 'unqualified' and entrust them with the care and education of students for 4 years, but then decide that suddenly this isn't OK without QTS! You will actually find that some Unions are now taking up this cause (QTS and the 'unqualified' scale) as they too feel that it is bordering on a racist practice.
  20. invincible

    invincible New commenter

    Just to make you feel better, in Germany I can't work in the state system AT ALL without going through much more than you lot have to go through to get QTS. I could work in the private sector or international schools but as for the state sector, it's a no-go area without numerous tests/exams and extra training and, even then, it's still damn near impossible to get a job as a foreign national. So what you all complaining about? Each country has its own regulations and if you don't like it, try something different and stop moaning about it.

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