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QTLS, QTS and parity

Discussion in 'Further Education' started by shirtandtie, Feb 4, 2010.

  1. Anyone can be challenged. I encourage my students to do it.
    No she didn't make that statement. She made a more subtle counter-point to your original point.
    Again Pobble never claimed such a thing. Perhaps you are getting 'maintained' confused with 'mainstream'.
    I think she made it crystal clear that this is not the case.
    Really? You must get yourself a new keyboard because a lot of what your are trying to communicate comes across as somewhat garbled.
    Interestingly the reason that the government added the skills tests to the QTS standards was because they found that there were teachers with GCSEs in English and Maths who could not affectively communicate with pupils.
    So good luck with those Emerson.
  2. Trust me Emerson The Pobble is many things but if you think she is ignorant and stupid then your learning journey is at an early stage.
  3. I appreciate shirtandtie has given a solid repsonse but...
    I'm not angry, I am amused. And no, your assertions are not the truth!

    Sixth Form Colleges... do you mean FE colleges? Sixth Forms are in schools......
    FE is a sector of its own, it is one of the two post-compulsory sectors, FE and HE!
    Compulsory sectors include Secondary schools and their 16 - 19 provision!
    No I didn't. You just misunderstood the point I was making!
    Read above - I do not claim that FE is anything at all in the school sector! It is post-compulsory and it is mainstream... I have no idea what you may be confusing it with!
    Warp? Was that the word you meant to use??

    Please stop with that particularly disingenuous prattle. You know you are misrepresenting the truth regarding the minimum requirements for FE lecturers.
    Yes, those who work in subjects where there is no degree available! As I said before there are other education routes avaialable in many industries, some of them have parity with degrees. But acknowledging that would ruin your diatribe, wouldn't it?

    So... do you wanna play Education Top Trumps.... or are you going to wriggle on that one? [​IMG]
  4. Emersonjackson seems to believe that QTS is the summit and sum of being a successful teacher. I find this attitude not only bizarre but wholly wrong, as well as distasteful. The truth of the matter is that many FE lecturers/teachers have not only higher level professional qualifications but also post-nominal professional designations; that are conferred because of provable excellence over many years. We are and always have been dual professionals in the truest sense of the word, or dare I say it tri professionals (subject specialism, teaching/training qualification and professional membership) Now if I compared my skills and experience as well as qualifications to EJ, I rather suspect that far from wanting 'an easy path to parity of esteem' I would actually want advanced standing, purely because my skills set bears no relation to theirs, Of course I could be wrong and EJ might also have a diverse skills set but I tend to think not, as the posts do reveal a certain inverted academic snobbery, misplaced I might add.
    EJ my advice would be not to generalise on this forum otherwise your demise will be swift and your credibility non-existent.

  5. 47, I am aware about the difference between 'warp' and 'wrap' which was a typographical error.
    Coming back to the point, I was expecting you people to have done a great deal of research to understand the differences between 'Sixth Form College', which is regulated under the FE charter and a 'Sixth Form School' which is an extension to the mainstream sector. Please refer to this web-link address and you may also consult other documentations to clarify this.
    I have very good and qualified friends who work in the FE sector and I am in no way looking down on them and some of them are even qualified school teachers. Most of people I have come across in this forum just want parity without thinking about satisfying the minimum criteria. As I said earlier on, the CONSERVATIVE PARTY going to be very firm on this.
  6. serendippy

    serendippy New commenter

    If you are talking about parity: How would you ensure that School teachers, wanting to teach in the FE sector, gain a minimum of five years relevant commercial experiance in order to achieve QTLS?
  7. EJ, I still cannot tell if we are talking about the same thing!
    You talk about sixth form colleges and sixth form schools!
    Do you mean FE colleges - FE sector and soixth form colleges - attached to schools?
    Sixth form is usually used to denote school, you see! Even your wiki link acknowledges that!
    If so it would help if you used the correct terminology, then we could actually have a discussion that is not based on misunderstandings!

    Astounding, and baseless!

  8. I have been fascinated by this debate and have to agree with Pobble wholeheartedly. I really do think that EJ means to be insulting but bit off more than he/she can chew! Pobble comes across as eloquent and extremely well informed, EJ's arguments are riddled with insults, jibes and inaccuracies,in my opinion - sheer snobbery (and in this respect you do sound like a Tory!)
    Those who teach in FE, in particular in vocational courses have had to suffer the archaic snobbery of some uninformed teachers who still think that vocational courses are less academic. This is evidenced by the school link programmes - schools sending their 'less academic' (for that read not 'school-shaped) pupils to colleges to take intro and first diplomas, often just to get them out of school as much as possible, while then adding their grade achievements to their own statistics.
    What FE lecturers demonstrate in this respect is their often superior (teaching) skills in meeting the needs of a diverse group rather than what has often become a heavily institutionalised activity by some school staff who fail miserably to motivate and educate and have probably forgotten why they entered the profession in the first place.
    Having a subject degree and a PGCE doesn't make for a superior educator and is on a par with having a NVQ 5/6 &/or a professional qualification and a cert ed/C&G - very few, if any in most FE colleges have less than this. And the advantage I have found in FE/ LLS lecturers is that they continue to learn and gain qualifications at a slightly higher rate and with more frequency than school teachers. Besides which, qualifications alone don't make you good at what you do, personal development, experience, being reflective and listening to criticism does that.
    I taught school link pupils in FE (14-16) in 1997 - 2002 and left that particular job because of the salary (£16000) and the hours - working from home into the early hours doing prep & marking, At that time I had a professional qualification (nursing), a Dip HE, a first degree (social sciences), PGCE & assessors award. I still teach sporadically and work in education across schools and colleges in a different role, and a better salary. Last year, with an added NVQ4, another Dip HE and two masters degrees (one in education), I was offered £28000 to teach in FE. If I had done the QTS when I had the chance ( a 3 month extension to my PGCE) I might well have continued to teach 14-16 year olds - but in school and in school sixth form, on a salary I deserved. The point is, FE lecturers deserve equity and pay parity with school teachers and to be able to move between the sectors if they want to. I have met some great teachers who would love to teach in FE and would be better in that environment but wouldn't want to take such a drastic pay cut, so both sectors lose out at the moment.
  9. Hi Emerson (or anyone), I am a FE lecturer in Computing, I have been asked by a local school to teach A level Computing to next years sixth form (school), I am really looking forward to it and thought it a good opportunity to obtain my QTS. I currently have Maths A' level and English at O' level, I also hold a honours and masters degree in Computing as well as the PGCE plus QTLS.
    Would you mind informing me where I can obtain an upgrade in 3 months to QTS.
    Regards Lakeland_boy

  10. Why would you want QTS? you have QTLS or so you say and in light of current events you will be paid on the same scale as others. By the way compulsory education as far as I am aware don't do O' levels anymore; did you mean GCSE's?

  11. Perhaps you also need to update your A'level and O' level for your own professional development.

  12. I note on another forum that you state you have a GCSE in English and yet on here you say O' level which is it. Also on the other topic site you don't mention the QTLS, on here you do and yet your question is essentially the same and was answered by Shirt and tie about gaining QTS. Curious to say the least.
  13. As I got my info from the veritable horses mouth I was sure it was correct - but I am still somewhat bemused that "perfectly good" GCSEs are not deemed to be good enough to be credited with a Level 2 competancy!
    Does anyone have any background as to why the decision was taken to require someone with A-C at GCSE (or equivalent) to take the skills tests?
    If it was required for those who are years away from their GCSE/O levels I could understand it. But it seems to be a blanket requirement and I find that odd! It seems to imply that the GCSEs are not rigorous/acceptable!

  14. It happened because at the time there were some Daily Mail type criticisms of some teachers who it was alleged could not speak proper or spell rite even though they had their GCSEs. There was an inference that this might be a problem in particular with overseas qualified teachers or those for whom English was not their first language.
    The skills tests are actually one of the QTS standards not seperate from them.
    The question is of course; what then is the value of the core GCSEs if government does not trust them when employing teachers.

  15. That is my thinking too!
    It raises all sorts of questions - none of them good!
    Ah well. I'll track down my old O level certs and get QTLS this year (even though I don't technically need it) and then hopefully I am done with proving myself!
    Well.... for a year or two [​IMG]
  16. I thought it might be worth throwing this back up. There were many possible debates but this was the most recent.
    I know its contentious but think its worth it anyway. As I read Mr Gove, it is parity without any condition or caveat. So congratulations FE teachers, and RIP to the one who has long since gone but whose voice and argument obviously was heard. Interesting that in a much earlier thread there was a reference to a promise made to FE teachers that they would receive recognition to teach in school in 2010.
    Interesting also that some of those now claiming "victory" were antagonist on this thread.

  17. Who? Who??
    I must have missed that!
    (You don't mean me, do you??)
  18. Old Harry? Jimmy Jazz? I heard he was here.

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