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Discussion in 'Further Education' started by witchfinder_specific, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. Why would any FE teacher want parity with a school teacher apart from pay and maybe conditions of service. The clue is in the title e.g. QTS (qualified teaching status) versus QTLS (quaiified teacher learning and skills) Who do you think is the true professional and catalyst of the next generation of skilled craftsman the school teacher or the FE teacher who has professional memberships like I do and can pass on several skills.

    The government if it had any awareness would be encouraging skilled FE teachers into schools so that they could pass on vital skills and motivate the kids.
  2. i'm a bit new and don't really understand why any lecturer would want to work in a sschool. I certainly never want to.
  3. There are some subjects such as psychology and sociology that are taught in school sixth forms but for which there are not always any school teachers able to to teach because they are not taught at below A-level. But these are subjects for which FE teachers are trained to teach and so some FE trained teachers teach these subjects in school sixth forms.
    However there are complications. In some areas sixth form provision is provided by independent sixth form colleges, and where this is the case there is no problem with either a school or FE teacher working side by side. They will both be recognised as qualified.
    But where a sixth form is part of a school an FE trained and qualified teacher will not be recognised as qualified. And this creates problems because sometimes, in some subject areas, it would benefit school children if FE trained teachers could also teach in schools.
    There are also just some restless souls that just like to see what is on the other side of the hill. I'm one of them, but I crossed in the other direction.
  4. It's a long and ancient discussion topic.
    It is not that we (most FE lecturers) would want to teach in a school more that we are speicifcally banned from doing so unless we take the post as an unqualified teacher = lower pay, lower status etc.
    Teachers moving up to FE know the terms and conditions they work under will be exactly the same as all of their peers, FE to compulsory cannot expect the same.
    There is supposed to be something magical in a PGCE that PTTLS CTTLS DTTLS, PGCE(FE) and all of the old CFET routes could not be expected to confer upon its students. I do not know what that magical ingredient is.
    I am hoping that S+T will be able to tell me.... but we are currently crossing wires [​IMG]

    I work in an FE college A Level Centre. Out of 16 of us (mainly part time) I am one of 3 FE trained lecturers - we are all full time. I cannot see what the 'schoolies' know or do that I do not and it drives me mad that I cannot expect parity as no-one can devise a test/procedure to APL me into a 'real' teacher should I ever be mad enough to apply for a post in a school and/or sixth form.
    And yes, I do teach a subject that is taught at GCSE!

    It is the unfairness of it that bugs me.... a conceptual beef rather than a real life one!
  5. Hi,
    I'm qualified with QTLS and teach law. It is not possible to obtain QTS in this subject and therefore my local sixth form (attached to a school but on a separate campus) could not fill a part time position for this subject. I applied for the job and got it without any problems only to find with my first pay cheque that im paid as unqualified for doing the same as others.
    This is the problem. I have never come into comtact with an under 16 and never will as we are not connected to the school yet someone with half of my legal qualifications could be paid substantailly more than me for doing a significantly worse job.
    I am not arguing with the fact that i cannot teach GCSE and my god i would not want to but i feel i do my job well and have been told this by collegues and yet im being used as cheap labour. (I am already looking for alternative positions for next year but am reluctant to abandon students who rely on me).
  6. That just about sums it up really, doesn't it?
  7. It's not magical. It's QTS. Despite the name it is an assessed qualification. The assessement is done during the 120 day school placement against the objective criteria set by the TDA and endorsed by the GTC. Assessment is made by the school and the ITT provider, both must agree that the trainee has met the standards. The FE routes simply do not contain this assessment, and it is perfectly possible to complete the FE routes without ever being in a classroom with children. And that's the big difference.
  8. Don't be so loyal. The school has been more than disingenuous in advertising the post as MPS when there was no likelihood of anyone being found who could be appointed on this scale. What happens to the children is the school's responsibility. They have knowingly allowed this situation to evolve.
    Ask for an appointment with the HT. Tell him/her that you feel that your naiveté has been taken advantage of and that you are looking for other jobs, and that if you find one you'd be prepared to break your contract (which means you'll never work in a school again, but then you don't want to).
    If they want you, they'll find a way of paying you (don't accept any flannel along the lines of 'oh we don't make the rules...'). And if they don't, you'll know exactly where their loyalty lies.

  9. Erm, I was working full time in the classroom and observed 6 times during each of the second 2 years of my CFET. My first year was spent teaching adults in the community alongside health professionals, NHS educators and the like - their standards were extremely high!
    Assessment was made by QT in college and CFET trainers, all assessments had to asess me as competent, meeting the standards.
    Mine did! And I believe the new ones do too!
    That would be the point of FE certs. We don't teach children! But if we wanted to then why should we be forced to start all over again? Why is ALL of our expertise automatically discounted, considered inferior or to be lacking completely?
    My point is that too many assume that all FE lecturers have no teachng quals. It is also assumed that any FE qual is useless and cannot possibly be APLd to include pedagogical practice.
    It is this I object to... it is blatant poppycock!

  10. A trainee teacher will be observed for every single lesson.
    No doubt, but the standards are not the same standards.
    But these were not the QTS standards, they were different standards.
    I'm sorry but I don't believe yours did, and by definition the DTLLS and PGCE(FE) do not contain an assessment against the QTS standards.
    The whole point of the QTS standards is that they specifically relate to the teaching of children and they can only be demonstrated through classroom practice teaching children.
    Because teaching children is different, and children deserve to be protected from potentially harmful and ineffective teachers and therefore QTS has to be demonstrated before a teacher is allowed to take a class unsupervised.
    So far as I know you are the only person who assumes this.
    As I have stated many times before there needs to be a clear and accessible route for FE trained teachers to obtain and demonstrate QTS because this is in the interests of school children.
    Pobble have you read the standards?
  11. Why would I read standards that I cannot achieve?
    As for 100% observation, so what? In schools trainees are never given the chance to develop their own classroom persona - what happens when they are left alone in a class? It must be a bit like the first time you drive alone after passing your test - terrifying!
    There are pors and cons of each method!

    And why do you continue comparing apples with oranges and insisting that yours is a balanced viewpoint?
    Unless you are deliberately being disingenuous some of that last post reads rather alarmingly silly - and I didn't expect that from you!
    I know the standards are not the same - but that is what APL is for, finding common ground and defining what extra is required before giving parity.
    To bolster your argument by referring to the QTS standards as being different is ineffectual - that you do it 3 times and consider it to be a robust ripost each time is silly!
    Especially as we are not disagreeing in concept. I just disagree with your initial stance that I, by definition, am incapable!
    You say
    In there is an assumption that FE trained staff are 'potentially harmful'. Why is there no pathway for APL from FE to the compulsory sector? Why is it deemed to be entirely innapropriate?
    I am certainly not the onlyperson who assumes FE quals are useless, have you read some of the comments here?

    I don't disgree that FE trained staff should be reoriented into NQT if they wish to be. I just cannot agree with the assumption that we are all incompetant by definition whilst NQT trained teachers are apparently gifted with the ability to teach everything!
    If it is to be recognised that understanding pedagogy is vital for school teaching then it should also be understood that andragogy is equally vital in the post compulsory sector. Working with QTS I can attest to the fact that they can be downright dangerous in certain situations in an FE classroom!

    As I said before, we don't really disagree, but you seem to want the QTLS --> QTS move to remain insurmountable without 100% retraining! If that is to remain so then I ask that QTS --> QTLS be equally difficult!
    luke_simms likes this.
  12. So as to make an informed contribution to the debate - you could always put it down to CPD.
    It is your judgement that you cannot achieve them, not mine.
    And as thrilling! And then as prosaic.
    It has always been my assertion that comparing QTS to QTLS is analogous to comparing apples and oranges, only more so. I leave it to others to judge the balance of my arguments.
    I have never suggested this, and I apologise (again) if I have ever given this impression.
    Yes. There is an assumption that all teachers are potentially harmful (to the development and wellbeing of school children) until they can demonstrate otherwise.
    I believe you. And it is worth remembering that QTS teachers only have a two year window to gain QTLS or they lose their licence to teach.
    I've never said that, and I will repeat again that I believe it is desirable to develop a clear and accessible pathway for FE trained and experienced teachers to gain QTS because this is in the best interests of children. This does not imply 100% re-training.
  13. Thnak god for that S+T!
    We started out agreeing then got all crossed up!
    I'd still take umbrage at
    As it is not my judgement but the 'law' of the teaching land that doesn't recognise FE certs as meritritious.
    Currently 100% retraining is the only pathway I would have if I decided to go into schools (horror of horrors) and that seems to be accepted as only right and just, or why else do we have the IfL arguing for parity?
    And I am equally serious when I state that QTS should need an equally robust APL for QTLS status, rather than it being granted on application to the IfL.

    But I am relieved we had a civilised argument.....
  14. Pobble, if you swallow that you will swallow anything. Think about it.
    Its Bullocks . I worked in a state secondary ( as you know Pobble) for the best part of 15 years, only having recently left. No way were trainees observed every lesson,. They got two visits from the PGCE tutor and were observed twice by the mentor in charge of trainees in school. In my school I shared an office with the school mentor. What he mostly did was get the paperwork together so the student could evidence the standards - not necessarily achieve them note..... there is always a little bit of argy bargy going on if you get my drift.
    As for the standards being different to those of the FE trained teacher. It may well depend on your certificate. Old FENTO certificates meet exactly the same standards. My even older one was in fact the same course for secondary and FE trained teachers.
    Looking at the standards - they are the same and could be easily APL'd from one sector to the other if you are working with the necessary age range. Indeed thats precisely what the assessment only route ( which is almost like gold dust to get onto of course because of the numbers wanting to do it) works.
    Some people dont half like to make themselves out to be big fish clever dont they?
  15. Whilst I take your point about obtaining QTS it is no longer true that the law of the land does not recognise FE quals as 'meritritious'. They are now recognised by government regulation and are codified into statutory membership of the IfL and ultimately QTLS which is statutory for new teachers in the LLS,
    And it shouldn't be. This is in no-one's interest.
    Arguing for QTS/QTLS parity is a mistake because they measure two different things in two different ways. It is potentially a political faux pas.
    Arguing for a parity of differences and developing mutual recognition of the pathways to overcome these differences is the way forward.
    Whilst again I take your point, the 'application' is no walk in the park. It's not like you just fill in a form, a great deal of evidence has to be obtained.
  16. I was thinking that! The trainees on TP I house shared with said they were often left alone with a class!
    And I was going to go look at the FENTO and compare them, as I did recognise some of them in the link! I shan't do so now!
    And S+T had previously decried the Obs only route as being ridiculous, which is where I came in I think - though possibly not on this thread!

    But I did want to be polite, Pobbles usually do!
    And it is Sunday and Climber is making tea.... and any other excuse I can think of [​IMG]


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