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Discussion in 'Further Education' started by witchfinder_specific, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. Yes, that is my understanding. This issue has been thoroughly investigated at my place of work and that was the the answer received from Ifl.
  2. Nor do I, but then again this poster is well known for having "many truths" - usually contradictory ones.
  3. Funny.
    With all this talk of slashing education spending and giving schools the right to decide their own pay structure, it really does look like parity will be achieved by cutting QTS pay and not raising ours. As I said in another thread, how long until the incorporation of secondary schools? There is one with a 6th form very near to my place that we could run very well.
    It was also noted recently that FE colleges can deliver A-Levels at a fraction of the cost of a 6th form. With spending cuts, FE may do better out of this than we might think.
  4. I was sort of taking that bit for granted..... it takes too many key strokes and brain cells to keep up with all the caveats doesn't it [​IMG]

    In the FE colleges I have worked in (only 3) there have been schoolies with a degree in something who have been taken on to teach A N Other subject. I did complain about the last one as I had met her before, but was soundly rebuked by HoD and VP (ex-schoolies both). GTC registered, QTS person was qualified to TEACH I was informed (with implied sneer at my mere FE certs well to the fore). Never mind, they dropped her in a hurry about 2 weeks before her proby period was up, she was utterly useless and we spent weeks catching up with her chaos!
    So it does happen in FE quite regularly! I don't mean to imply all schoolies are craperoo (sorry, I am still religiously dodging the filter) just pointing out the inequity and unthinkingness of the system.
    But something should be put in place. And QTLS was mis sold as it, apparently!

    Hum ho!
  5. Probably cos we do our own notice boards [​IMG]
  6. QTLS : QTS parity is an important issue for those of our colleagues working regularly in the 14 - 16 area of the 14 - 19 agenda, as they are brought into contact, indeed may teach, with colleagues in schools where the school trained teacher is seen as qualified and the FE teacher or trainer not qualified. That said, for the majority of teachers and trainers in FE and skills the main consideration is how their professional status is seen and valued by the sector they work in, where school teaching is often the main comparitor.
    IfL's vision has always been to create a powerful artticulation of the professional identity of teachers and trainers in FE and skills, leading to our focus on the work of Jocelyn Robson and others in the mid to late 90s, describing the dual professional aspect of FE teaching and training. First and foremost our mission is to have FE teachers and trainers rightly recognised for the professionals they are; professionals who have, by and large, taken a very different route into teaching than colleagues in schools, having spent many years in business, industry, the public and private sectors, developing and advancing their vocational or subject expertise.
    I think we have made significant progress here, and it is refreshing to see this work now form the way the sector sees the teaching or training professional. It is only from this platform, one that was not there before IfL, that we can start to campaign for parity of esteem for FE teachers, not just in the sense of with school teachers but also the other professions and vocations from where we seek to attract the people we recruit to teach and train learners in FE and skills.
    So, I think it is job part way done and IfL has the potential to build on early successes - our role in influencing select committees and working with UKCES to demonstrate the importance to the country of FE teachers and trainers will be critical in the promotion of this agenda. IfL will continue to campaign until there are reciprocal routes into school teaching for FE teachers and trainers, where their skills and expertise as dual professionals are rightly recognised as being equivalent to their colleagues in schools.
  7. Absolutely. This is a problem that needs resolving.
    But the solution, as appeared to be advocated by your colleague Toni Fazaeli, of equating QTS to QTLS is wrong.
    These are two very different animals; they measure two different things in two different ways.
    If the Institute pursues this strategy it risks bringing disripute upon itself when it is realised by parents that what is potentially being advocated here is that lecturers, trainers and instructors who have QTLS but no training for, or experience in, teaching children will be able to apply for jobs doing just that.
    The IfL must of course advocate the skills of those in the LLS, but it must be careful not to be caught off-side by not also advocating the safe and effective teaching of children.
  8. Out of interest, and not to stir an already simmering pot, why do you think equating QTLS to QTS is so wrong?
    I have the feeling that, from my FE only vantage, I have missed something vital!
  9. Sorry, the hasty hitting pf post stopped me finishing my thoughts!

    I understand that you see a lack of pedagogy in FE certs, just as I see a lack of andragogy in teaching certs.
    But I can't see that this is insurmountable, certainly not a big enough lack to justify a definite, eternal block to my teaching in the compulsory sector (should I ever lose my mind and try it)!
  10. Just to throw a big spanner in the works and put the pot to boil. What pedagogy in the standard PGCE ( QTS) version?
    A secondary teacher is no more prepared to teach in primary ( although there is no bar to them doing so) than any one from FE. Indeed there are many similarities between the teaching methods taught in FE cert and those for PGCE these days.
    Most PGCE (QTS) students have heard of neither the term pedagogy ( let alone what it entails) or andragogy in my experience - which is long and somewhat colored by cynicism in these days of tick lists and "standards" . Not as PGCE has ever been big on pedagogy. B.Ed maybe but not PGCE!
    Of course its nothing to do with me. me being QTS and all and now working in the independent sector. With people like shirtandtie ( educator of FE teachers and QTS from a school background) to champion your cause, you dont need me to say anything.[​IMG]
    With friends like that in FE, you dont need any enemies. Best of luck to all FE trained teachers working with 14 - 19 year olds. Hope the IfL can see the sense that if teachers have training and experience for a certain age range and their certificates say that they do, then they should be defended as qualified in that arena no matter what the particular type of institution they are required to teach in.
  11. Not at all. This is not the issue. In fact much of recent 'pedagogy' has stolen, and often misused, ideas from 'andragogy'.
    This is an issue of skill sets and competence.
    Consider my colleague Pete. He has three degrees and does not teach anyone under 18. He doesn't have QTLS but if he applied he would get it.
    Now consider this scenario. Pete is asked to take a mixed ability Year 9 class. There is a Polish and a Hungarian boy who do not speak English and don't even understand each other. There is also and Asian girl who doesn't speak English but since half the class is of Asian origin that's less of a problem however she appears to be being bullied by the other girls who are reluctant to sit by her. What is a more worrying problem is that there is a simmering racial tension between some of the boys. Two children are on the SEN register, one is at 'action plus'. The HoD has asked you to conduct a 'levelled exercise' and you are to be observed as he is concerned that the department does not have enough data for the Fischer Family Trust analysis. He is also concerned that Pete can apply the school's new BfL policy properly.
    So what's Pete's game plan? What would yours be?
    Do you think Pete understand the issues raised here? Do you?
    Now anyone with QTS will immediately recognise that the issues are those covered by the 30+ QTS standards that they have already demonstrated they can meet. In other words they are competent to safely and effectively take this class. It will be a challenge, but one that every school teacher with QTS has been trained to meet.
    Do you think Pete has this training? Do you think you have? Do you think he is competent? Are you?
    Remember QTLS may be awarded to prison instructors, military trainers, and commercial IT trainers. It is available to everyone who teaches in the LLS. Do you think colleagues with these backgrounds would have the skills to be able to take this class?
    Do you think QTLS can be equated to QTS?
    BTW this is a real scenario - a class I took some years ago. They offered me the job. I turned them down (their BfL policy was rather strange - you couldn't send children out of the class). But this doesn't make me better than Pete, you, or anyone else in FE. It just means that I have some different skills.
    If your boiler wasn't working you would need to call a qualified person to fix it. But you wouldn't call an electrician, you'd call a gas fitter. Yet electricians and gas fitters have no problem working side by side and have mutual respect for each others skills and qualifications. They don't pretend to be able to do each others job, (in fact, in my experience, nor do they want to).
    I am puzzled by the stance of some posters that if you are not championing QTS/QTLS parity you are not championing FE. I fail to follow this logic at all.
    If you don't like working in FE then leave and do something else.
    I have chosen to teach in FE, and I have chosen to help others who have also chosen to teach in FE. They are not learning to teach school children and I and their other tutors are not teaching them to do that. How can this be wrong? How can this not be championing FE?
  12. And in using that example you defeat your own point.
    A modern boiler, with its complex electronic and computerised control systems, can be repaired by plumber, gas engineer or electrician ... depending on the fault.
    Dream on!
    I imagine you have stated this to try and give your post some sort of validity and not because you actually believe it. How long do you think it would take a colleague from FE to learn this? The full duration of the GTP? I think not.

  13. Mmmm.....but I think only one of them will be legally allowed to do so.
    This is what I believe, as does the GTC, and every school leader appointing NQTs. But don't take my word for it.
    I've never suggested this is not possible. But if you are asking how long it would take my collegue Pete, then the answer is never. However my other collegue Colin who is one of our IFP Horse Whisperers, he would ace it within a term and would be a great asset to any school.
    Just three problems.
    • He ain't a graduate
    • Even if he was no school round here offers GTP
    • He ain't interested in working in school.
    Truth is this debate isn't really about QTS;QTLS parity. I've yet to meet someone in FE who wants to work in a school. Its about the chips on some peoples' shoulders and its about pay.
    I can't do anything about the former and the Tories are about to solve the second problem (as others have observed), but not in a way any of us would wish for.
  14. Damn! My long post just disappeared mid word!

    Suffice it to say I would heartily refute much of what shirtandtie is insisting is true!
    I am SEN trained, as are ALL of my colleagues. We know ECM and Safeguarding inside out - as all FE lecturers should! Any differences between FE application and school application would be a simple matter of an orientation/training session - just as schoolies should get before thay start in FE where the rules are adult ed specific. Of course they don't because of the mythology concerning their abilities - the differences go both ways!
    I have never advocated ALL FE lecturers being given APL to QTS. I merely continue to question why that door seems to be implacably closed? Personally I have a higher education level than many school teachers and have the benefit of industry experience plus educational certs that are (almost) the equivalent of any teacher training course, especially a PGCE! I am trainable, provably so, and would probably need minimum re-training in order to meet QTS standards. But some weird innate snobbery prevents me from doing so.

    Finally, I love working in FE and would NEVER want to teach at GCSE. But I do not see why I cannot work with parity in a sixth form. I believe I have far superior abilities to a school trained teacher in that capacity!
    And if that isn't championing FE then what is???
  15. Agreed Pobs

    S&T is quite deliberately misrepresenting what you say, fear not those who have come to know you fully appreciate your wholehearted support for FE and you are spot on with your analysis of what proper QTLS/QTS flexibility means for both sectors.
  16. They are not, because not all FE lecturers teach children or those with SEN. No one in my staff room (save the ex-schoolies) and the Horse Whisperer would know what you were talking about.
    I don't know how simple this would need to be. I think it would depend on the person. It should be noted that schoolies moving into FE now must complete an orientation module, and a specification for this is provided by LLUK
    But others have; and if I've misrepresented your position then I appologise.
    I'm not sure it is, rather the problem is that there is no clear doorway to pass through. This is not in the best interests of anyone, not least school children who might benefit if there were clearer pathways between both sectors.
    And of course you could if it were a sixth form college.
    The problem is where a sixth form is embedded in a school. The ethos of secondary schools is that teachers teach across all years and all abilities (which is very different from FE), and they only employ teachers for exclusive sixth form teaching for exceptional reasons.
    So do I.
  17. Not so. Care to tell us why you think this, so I can then prove to the forum just how wrong you are.
  18. You don't actually work in FE, do you? I had many of my staff working in schools as far back as the mid 90s, they all wanted to.
  19. Some of us would really rather you didn't!!!
  20. Pray tell why?

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