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Public nudity & assault - Is anyone to blame here?

Discussion in 'Personal' started by Vince_Ulam, Jan 2, 2018.


Who should know better?

  1. The woman alone

    1 vote(s)
  2. The man alone

    13 vote(s)
  3. Both the woman and the man

    18 vote(s)
  1. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    At that festival, then the question stands abstract. Labelling an event "R18" would seem to license sexual displays & bawdy behaviour.
  2. Calpurnia99

    Calpurnia99 Star commenter

    How about leaving a few open bottles of booze lying around at the local AA meeting place? Kind, respectful, considerate, your perfect right.
  3. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    For some unknown reason I am reminded of this video...

    I don't know why I like this advert.
  4. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Obviously not, as any honest reader would acknowledge.

    Whatever the reason, the taboo is there.

    If this is the case then why did this man wait until a bare breasted woman walked by before he became grabby?
  5. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Who doesn't like puppies?
  6. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    She sleeps in her knickers; euch!
    monicabilongame likes this.
  7. adam_nichol

    adam_nichol Occasional commenter

    At the time I'm writing this, the poll is 50:45 joint:man-alone blame. I find this interesting, and will say why in a moment.

    There seeem to be 2 threads being discussed - the extent to which her actions make her cuplable for what happened (ie: victim blaiming or not); and what is an acceptably proportional response by her. I have been absent from TES for a long time, so am going to optimistically regard the absence of comment on the efforts of the Daily Mail to support the patriarchy and disempowerment of women as something so common place as to be unworthy of a raised eyebrow. Indeed, my total lack of suprise that it is this title that finds something to undermine the legitimacy of metoo.

    But whay is this story undermining to meetoo?

    Back to why I find this interesting. Firstly, my view: He is in the wrong. That is all. Seeing breasts is not an invite to paw at them. Whether she was right to gather friends and hunt him down afterwards, I won't comment on. I won't know what it feels like to be subject to what happened to her (well, never say never, but I can't see the situation where this'd occur). There are 'shoulds' abound...should she have responded immediately, sought attention from the crowd to assist her, sought an appropriate authority? Did she initially shy away in fear and only return when her anger had grown? Is either of those reactions ok? Who knows? Not me, and I shall leave such thoughts to the better placed.

    So, he did a wrong thing. What interests me though, is what this story says about how we regard personal responsibility. Women should be allowed to wear (or not) what they like without fear of unwanted contact. Can't disagree with that. In the same vain, I should be able to walk down the road with £££ in notes in my hand without fear of being robbed. I should. But I don't. Just like I should be able to cross at a zebra without fear of being run over - I still check first.

    Her behaviour carried a degree of risk. Breasts are sexualised. I'm inclined to think there is a degree of nature with the nurture here - given that I am immune to some other societal constructs of beauty/sexual-desirability. Perhaps societies that encourage concealment produce a more covertous response and over-excited over-reation when they are unexpectedly viewed? Her behaviour was risky because of this. It shouldn't be risky, and I'm stepping on the toes of victim-blaming; but it is risky.

    But I see the bigger question here as: to what extent should we support people when they act as though the world is risk-free becuase those risks shouldn't exist? Can and should we allow people to do as they please, innured of any sense of culpability for what happens, because it is the other party that acted in the wrong?
    But, then, what's at the other end of the scale? People adapt every facet of their behaviour to every conceivable 'what-if'? Won't there always be an unconsidered what-if?

    So, I guess it will be case-by-case. The expected parallels have been drawn for this story. Topless beach. But this is socially normative in those areas; and mental schemas for beaches tend towards voyerism or entirely non-sexual activity. Staffroom. Not a place where limited clothing is normative. An adults-only concert. Hmmm...for people of my geenration at least, adults only + booze + music (often very sexualised too) is all part of a sexual schema - isnt' this how we all 'pulled' pre-tindr? To wear only glitter up-top in a nightclub would have been seen as rather invitational (and I suspect still is). Is an open air concert really any different? But, dressed or not, men have no right to grope girls without their consent. But, doesn't mean it won't happen.
    Laphroig and Vince_Ulam like this.
  8. kibosh

    kibosh Star commenter

    Contextual expectations. Know your audience. If you don't know your audience, play it safe. Neither of them did.
  9. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    So all those at that festival have a serious illness* that means they can't keep their hands off people of the other sex? Really? Or why not admit this is a pretty poor comparison ;)

    *Because that's what alcoholism is...
  10. Calpurnia99

    Calpurnia99 Star commenter

    I presumed you would accept the analogy but was mistaken.

    "Victim blaming". Now there's a new Flavour of the Month. I think I'd have to be a little more convinced about the victimhoodness of a woman who struts around with her small garden birds out and then complains when the attention she clearly sought by her actions resulted in common assault (or whatever the charge was).

    It is not a woman's (or anyone's) perfect right to do as they wish and then accept no responsibility for the consequences.
  11. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    I agree. But it certainly isn't acceptable to go and touch/hit/pat her either.

    Personally I thought her reaction was totally appropriate (rather then, say, reporting him to the police).

    But remember she was not doing him (nor anyone else) any harm by walking past.
  12. smilingisgoodforyou

    smilingisgoodforyou Occasional commenter

    The man should know better. but there again, so should the woman. What a stupid thing to do, to wander around half naked, at such a venue. She shouldn't have put herself in such a vulnerable position.
    monicabilongame and Vince_Ulam like this.
  13. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    Don't go to the beach, then...;)
  14. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Haha... *snort*
    monicabilongame likes this.
  15. chelsea2

    chelsea2 Star commenter

    Been thinking about this today....for what it's worth, my thoughts:

    - presumably, if the woman in question had been breaking any rules / laws, she would have been asked to cover herself up further; that doesn't appear to have happened, therefore (whether anyone likes / approves / agrees or otherwise), she is in the clear. She was doing nothing wrong.

    - the guy is clearly WAY out of order to do what he did (again, regardless of whether anyone thinks she provoked / 'was asking for it' / was attention seeking) and by touching her has probably committed assault (I say 'probably', because I am no legal expert) or is guilty of some other crime.He is responsible for his actions, no one else.

    - by retaliating as she did, she may well have also committed an offence - it went further than self-defence.
    Vince_Ulam likes this.
  16. FormosaRed

    FormosaRed Occasional commenter

    I think I'm going to put that on a poster on my A level display board. Beautiful.
  17. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    Sorry, I only wanted #24.
    Mangleworzle and Didactylos4 like this.
  18. emilystrange

    emilystrange Star commenter

    the 'man' was entirely wrong. if he can't cope with the sight of boobs on show he needs to groww up a lot. this is a festival, in hot weather. most people there will have been in some state of undress. festivals are not places where nudity is generally regarded with disdain, or anything much. clearly not everyone has been to one... this would have caused hardly a stir at Reading or Glastonbury (if the weather is ok, obv), it's not unusual. they're just bits of a body and showing them hurts no one. what he did IS illegal. he has no excuse to complain. she does.
    the drinking thing is a red herring. i've been at many festivals over the years, with alcohol flowing, and no one has ever done anything like that, that i've heard of or seen. people can behave.
  19. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    It's all a bit Babs Windsor isn't it... do see if festival goers/those involved realise how cliche it all seems.

    Carry on... as you were.
    Mangleworzle likes this.
  20. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

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