# Progress KS2/KS4

Discussion in 'Mathematics' started by ABCgor, Apr 13, 2011.

1. ### ABCgorNew commenter

Can anyone tell me ( or tell me where to find) what % of pupils actually make the "expected" 3 levels of progress from KS2 to KS4 in Maths, i.e level 3 to a D , level 4 to a C, level 5 to a B. Also is it easier to make this progress from a level 5, 4 or 3.
Many thanks

2. ### arsinhNew commenter

This information is all on the DfE website.

National percentage making 3 levels progress in mathematics 2009 (4 levels progress in brackets)
KS2 Level B/N = 21% (4%)
KS2 Level 2 = 23% (6%)
KS2 Level 3 = 36% (12%)
KS2 Level 4 = 62% (20%)
KS2 Level 5 = 76% (45%)

... so it is definitely easier for brighter students to make this amount of progress.

3. ### kevchenko13

Does it strike anyone else as odd that this measure doesn't give much recognition of GCSE grades higher than a B?

4. ### chelle_b

Or any recognition at all to kids who achieve a Grade F/G

I'm all for kids making progress, but some of ours who are set target grades of an E, when they get to us in Year 7 working below NC Level 2 are instantly set up to "fail". They wouldn't have been entered for the NCTs in Y6, so technically, they should be making 3LP from nothing, as that's what they've got so far. This would put their target as a G.

For some of those kids, to get a Grade F at the end of Y11 is a significant amount of progress, and a huge achievement. As usual, it tends to go un-noticed by the powers that be, as the only grades that are important are C+

5. ### kevchenko13

I don't know if Entry Level Maths can be used towards this achievement? The top grade in EL Maths is '3', and this corresponds roughly to NC L3 - so if someone got an N in Year 6, would a top pass at Entry Level 'count'?

6. ### Betamale

IMO it means little
Many levels are fabricated or forced and the boundaries are so wide that it means little.
My level 5 pupils in year 7 now vary from those utterly fluent in numeracy and quite well clued up on mathematical topics to those who are poor at mental maths and lack any understanding of basic maths ideas. The spectrum is huge. There is no way they will be in the same place in 5 years tme in terms of levels of progress.
C grade is meant to be ~ level 7 right?
If the current GCSE foundation paper is level 7 then.............................

7. ### Betamale

Yes my true level 5 kids are working from the foundation GCSE book and at ease with most of it whilst some other level 5s are arguing about the interior angles of a square and reaching for a caclulator to divide 35 by 5

8. ### lancsHODNew commenter

I think all secondary schools should do a standardised test in september of year 7 and that should be the baseline data. That would stop a lot of the intensive coaching of year 6 pupils. The test would need to give all pupils a level 'N' is useless.

9. ### Betamale

Im all for that and we did it.
Problem being in our school is we had already had bands Blue/Red/Green based on KS2 data (ie their so called levels when they left)
SLT would not move kids as it had timetable issues and those with N from KS2 stayed in Green which is the lower band. These were often very able EAL pupils, kids who were new to the area or those who missed the testing in KS2. Then there were the ones with fabricated KS2 data who remained in the red band (highest one) who were weaker (AND mixed in with able kids)
So, we have a bunch of good, able kids rusting away in the bottom sets....ohhh this is whilst SLT bang on about ensuring 5 A*-C in the 3/4/5 sets of Y11 asking "What can we do to get these ids over the line to get a C grade?".....dont screw them up in year 7...perhaps?

10. ### pwc9000New commenter

Where on the DfE website can this be found?

11. ### strawbsEstablished commenter

here is a very detailed document with all sorts of breakdown on progress etc
it is called "Measuring Progress at Pupil, School and National levels
Schools Analysis and Research Division July 2009"
table 2.2 gives the basics, but there is a massive amount of other stats - ethnicity, social background, smoking, bullying etc

Thanks

13. ### sulas

The problem is ( speaking as a year 6 teacher) in primary school we are expected to show a minimum of 2 sub levels of progress for every child each academic year. Clearly not all children are capable of making that level of progress so 'some teachers' feel obliged to inflate levels rather than state the facts. this then causes problems for the next teacher who has children entering the year with inflated levels and is still expected to show 2 sub levels progress. By the time they reach year 6, i frequently have children listed as a level 5 who are clearly nowhere near a level 5 and in some cases one wonders if they ever will be however much support is put in place.
Again, rather than blaming primary teachers, look at the system - it lets us all down.

14. ### MathsHOD

<P> Whilst the system you descibe of expecting everyone to make 2 sub-levels of progress per year has obvious flaws it's not so much the system at fault here but 'some teachers' artificially inflating levels to make themselves look good (or not look bad at least!).
<P> Whilst I can understand why they are doing so it isn't very professional to fake 'results'.

15. ### sulas

This is very true ofcourse but pressure does strange things to people. A few years back i worked for a head who told me that my teacher assessments were wrong - without even looking at the children's work - they just didn't match up with the targets for the reasons given previously. so what happened - i was told to change them and when i refused - he changed them himself instead!! Targets must be met whatever else.
The system is rife with this kind of thing and is down to the unreasonable pressure to produce results regardless of the consequences. this will only stop when the powers that be accept that the important thing is that all children make progress according to their ability and dare I say the amount of effort they are willing to put in. I accept that there are poor teachers out there but the vast majority are doing a good job with less than adequate support and far too much pressure.

16. ### Betamale

Reading pots like Sulas' merely confirm the requirement for a universal, external exam at key points in a kids education pitched against other countries rather than just living in a world where we water down our education to hit levels or targets.
What does level 5 mean anymore? the content is far easier than ever. What about just saying what % did this kid get in a universal exam, where does that place them in the world in terms of their peers (age based) and what needs doing if the are note there.
One at the end of KS1, one in KS2 and then every year on from that where kids are accountable for their application and ability. The 3 year KS3 without a formal exam is a waste of time and its showing in many schools as many kids simply think "I will wait til GCSE" whilst SOME teachers know they can fudge data and not be held accountable