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PPA cover problems

Discussion in 'Early Years' started by 24601_, Dec 5, 2011.

  1. It is time PPA was scrapped in Primary schools. It would certainly go some way to making up the pension shortfall. PPA came about due to the secondary school dominated unions. If we scrapped all the meaningless and time-consuming paperwork, such as learning journeys (photo albums for parents), what would a Nursery teacher do with all that time?
     
  2. There isn't a pension shortfall. The nursery teacher would prepare, plan and assess. You can be sure, he/she would always find something that needed doing!
     
  3. 1. There is. 2. Take away their PPA and they would prioritse and not waste public money finding superfluous things to do to fill the time.
     
  4. 1. The pension fund has a very healthy surplus.2. Pressure to do 'superfluous things' would not disappear if PPA was abolished, just as those pressures existed before it was established.
     
  5. 1. A teacher suddenly finding themselves in the real world of the private sector would have to pay at least 38% of their pre-tax salary into a pension scheme that would give them an equivalent pension. (Compare that to your 6.4% you pay now). That is the most conservative estimate and in reality is likely to be much more. 2.The TPS is not a scheme. There is no "pension pot" invested and paying out accordingly (as private schemes do), what comes in today is paid out tomorrow, not invested, so why do you think it can be in "surplus"? 3. Get back to the basic role of teachers: Teaching children. There is no NEED to complete all this paperwork. Most of it is never looked at again. It is a lovely excuse to say "I have all these pro-formas to fill in", etc. But as anyone on here who is honest knows, it is a doss, funded by tax-payers who pay you to do your real, more difficult job - teaching children.
     
  6. What is this 'real world'? OK private sector pensions may require higher employee contributions, however in the real world (up till now) teachers were led to expect their pension to be one of the better aspects of their chosen career. In 2006 the treasury decided that pension arrangements for teachers were affordable in the long term. But the fact is that the public sector are being made to pay! via pension reform, for the mistakes of government and finance. And don't forget that teachers are tax payers too.As for paperwork never being looked at again, that may be so, but while it is required someone has to do it. And be given time to do it. And we're it to be swept away tomorrow teachers would still need to prepare and resource their teaching and assess their pupils.Incidentally, as a supply teacher I cannot pay into the TPS, so my arguments are not those of self interest.
     
  7. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    I worked in the private sector paying a fraction of what I now contribute as a teacher towards my pension yet the predicted amount on retirement from both schemes are roughly equal (private sector is slightly more) so that isn't quite true.

     
  8. Take your 6.4% contributions out of TPS as is your right. Take it to a pensions advisor and ask him for an inflation-proofed final salary pension scheme that will pay what TPS pays even after the reforms with a lump sum of over half your total contributions. Watch his face...........

    The figures a teacher ending on £35k having served 40 years are: a basic pension of £17500 and a lump sum of £52500.

    The teacher will have contributed at most: £ 89600 over 40 years. (Do the maths - it is not difficult even for a teacher).

    Watch his face...........
     
  9. 1. Two wrongs don't make a right. Should public sector pensions be reduced to the levels of the private sector just out of some dog in the manger attitude? Or should private sector pensions be improved? 2.Changes in pension terms and conditions for people already working in a profession are, in effect, a broken promise. The reasonable pension a teacher who has worked for their whole life without any breaks receives is an aspect of the job, not some sort of favour. In addition the pension sums mentioned are the best available to teachers who have not had any breaks in service and will only be received by a minority.
     
  10. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    i would like to meet the ordinary class teacher who expects to get anywhere near these figures my projected pension after 25 years is roughly a third of that and I'm SMT
     
  11. To deal with your last point first, of course the pension sums are the best available and assume full service and yes not all will receive this (for reasons such as career breaks for maternity, etc.) However, we are trying to live in the real world here. This scenario applies to any employee, private or public - you get what you pay for. Ask Asda for free shopping when you don't have enough money, for whatever reason, and note their response.


    Now to your first point. Two wrongs do not make a right, of course. But where is the wrong?The private sector has had to face up to reality, i.e. existing pension schemes were not only uneconomical, but unsustainable. But in the private sector, pensions are paid for in advance with investment and you take out the return on your investment, win or lose. In the public sector you do not make an investment, you pay into a scheme and the tax-payer pays out on your retirement. There is no risk. Is it not "a wrong" to ask private sector employees, whose pay and pensions have already been brought in line with economic reality, to subsidise public sector pensions? I ask again, where, (in reality) is the wrong?


    Finally, to deal with the "broken promise", that is again the reality of the economic situation I'm afraid. How many private sector employees have received a lower pension than they expected? Most of them. Does this really add weight to your argument that they should subsidise you in your old age?
     
  12. Try the Teachers' Pension Scheme website pension calculator. That is where my figures are from.
     
  13. My point is that the figures you have quoted are widely used to suggest that teachers and other public sector workers have a 'gold-plated' pension. This is very divisive and sets private against public employee. In 'the real world' pensions most teachers end up with are nothing like the amounts quoted.As, in 2006, the government assessment of the teacher pension was that it was affordable in the long term, it is clear that changes in the scheme are not based on it being unaffordable but on it offering a source of income for the government to use for other things. Who are the 'they' who are subsiding teachers in their old age? Tax payers from the public and private sectors. This includes all tax paying teachers, who have accepted a cap on their earnings while some employees in other areas party on the Titanic.
     
  14. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Yes I've seen them but I haven't met a real person who has received those figures when they get their annual pension statement from the TPS ...have you?
     
  15. How many retired teachers have you met? I would guess an insignificant amount to make a statistical analysis. Of course it is not straight forward, people take time out for maternity, etc. But that is not the point. These factors would apply to any pension scheme. Yes or no, is the TPS a generous scheme when compared to almost any private or public scheme? Yes or no, do teachers generally get much more than they contribute? Yes or no, should my children and grandchildren be saddled with debt to subsidise teachers' pensions? Yes or no should teachers pay a bit more and work a bit longer to contribute more to what they get out? I am a teacher and I believe that I should pay my own way and provide for my own retirement. I have a secure job. I am paid well. I work very sociable hours.I have a good pension.
     
  16. Could you give an example of an individual thrown into debt as a result of their personal contribution to TPS through the tax system?
     
  17. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    I'm asking about figures not actual pensions Do you not receive a statement indicating what pension you can expect in the future?
    In a room containing 2000+ teachers not one was expecting anywhere near the figures bandied around by the press ... even taking in the small sample you would have expected at least one to fall in the category.
    I can only compare with my own private pension scheme which is much more generous ...

     

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