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Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by sniffybear, Oct 29, 2008.

  1. I hope you are not a teacher yourself, as simple punctuation appears to be beyond you.......weak teacher?
  2. Please ignore the above, tried to delete but was unable to.
  3. I have observed lessons that were rated outstanding in every criteria but because the behaviour of one or two students was not acceptable it has to be deemed no more than satisfactory. I don't think it is necessary a reflection of the teaching and learning.

    I don't think some teachers are honest about the behaviour of disruptive students. I'm having problems with a student who seems to have more last chances than you can imagine. No one else was supposedly having problems with him......that's not what support teachers confided to me!

    Also I think some boys in particular have no respect for women teachers and generally give them a hard time.

    I asked the brother of a pupil I taught who was able but very challenging ( I think the Americans call these students, "criminally able"). He stayed into the sixth form as this is this requires no decision on his part where he did no work so was asked to leave. Five years later he is still at home doing nothing.

    We are human and some of these student test our patience to the limit.
  4. I am making a general reply to all the posts I've read on this subject.

    I've taught for many years and have dealt with at least my share of behaviour problems. In every school that I've taught, there have been wonderfully behaved and ill-behaved students. I find that when we deal with such unpleasant things as behaviour problems, our knee-jerk tendency is to search for the guilty and then punish the innocent. There seems to be a fair amount of this going on in the current topic thread.

    For what it's worth (and with all respect to those with a different opinion on the matter), I will say that teachers do not cause bad behaviour. They can respond in ways that exacerbate it (I know -- I've proved it!!), but the decisiton to behave badly always begins with the student. Students always have the choice to do the right thing, even when they do not exercise or choose it.

    As my aunt is fond of saying, "No matter how much you care, some people are just ***".

    That'sw my story --- and I'm sticking to it!!


  5. Dear Sniffybear,

    This has got to be a windup! Come to this deprived area in the northwest of Glasgow and see how hard the teachers work with limited resouces and see if you can teach rather than oversee bad behaviour...with no sanctions and no respect. Children come to school with little socialisation, little regard for adults decisions, no respect for others and we have to teach them. We now have to write 'please and thak you in the children's jotters'. Some changes have gone TOO far!

    Not enough for you? Vindicitive parents who are jealous because they think we work from 9am to 3pm and earn LOTS of money is a large part of the equation...led on by media disaffection and a government that goes on about 'bad' teachers. In my belief neither the politicians, the policy makers or the head teacher have been in the classroom for many, many years.

    Anyone who teaches in this climate is very brave because we have NO respect from some parents and little respect from the media.

    I'm sure it was your intention so you succeeded - yes, you made me angry!

    Margaret Dunn (disillusioned teacher).
    pepper5 likes this.
  6. What a ***** - have you ever actually taught, I suspect not. It is very possible that you have been in a classroom but are one of those teachers who plays computer games or reads magazines/books their holidays, in which case you take no notice of the students you teach, therefore do not notice their behaviour and so think you have no problems. Whoever you are, you are the kind of **** we need to get rid of. In most fields of work saying you need help and have a problem is a sign of weakness, in this job not saying so is a sign of stupidity. Methinks this is you.
  7. The only simple one is you. Maybe you teach in an area where kids are clever, obedient and don't limit their future to the ability to lift heavy things or make socks which can be imported from China for 1/10th the price. Maybe most of your kids have ambition. Only guessing, but maybe most of your parents can read. I'll happily offer you a swap for a couple of weeks.

    There could be something of potential credence in what you say, but your view is far too simplistic. At a rough guess, you've not been too long in the trade and think you can walk on water. You will probably (and hopefully as a learning exercise) live to eat your own words.
  8. JHL


    I'm no disciplinarian. I don't ooze confidence, don't do an especially fiersome line in b----ckings, I don't have fantastic wiles with which to ensnare would-be miscreants in cycles of good behaviour, nor are my lessons invariably inspirational. I am really very average when it comes to crowd control. My classes are almost always orderly, however, because I work in a good school. There is, of course, a decent sanctions system, which practically every school will have, but most importantly the pupils themselves are driven by their parents and friends to be the best they can. That, I'm afraid, is what really makes the difference.

    It's not the systems, though of course they are a sine qua non of any school. It's not the innovative teaching methods, though of course these engage kids who are already sufficiently switched on to appreciate them. It's not down to the support of SMT, though this is undoubtedly an invaluable resource in bringing a greater 'resolution' to serious issues. It is the culture in which the children are raised. Do they see all around them the positive results of trying hard in school? Do they have positive role models, not only in their parents but in their peer-group? Has academic success become an end in itself for them? To expect one person who sees the child for no more than three or four hours a week to keep in line an individual who has none of these positive influences is, I'm afraid, asking the impossible. Those who attempt this task deserve a medal. They deserve your respect not because they always succeed, but because they never give up.

    pepper5 likes this.
  9. No I don't think so. I agree with Dr Hyde there are more complex issues here at stake. Why does behaviour have to always be blamed on the school and the teachers? Where are the parental responsibilities in this. Children learn a lot of their behaviour patterns before they enter the educational arena, where do they learn these social behavioural patterns? At home with their families. I had this attitude thrust down my throat as a trainee teacher and it only served to undermine the attempts I was making to help the young children I was teaching to understand how exciting learning about the world could be. Their attitudes and behaviours had already determined some of their approaches to life in general, even at a very early age of Reception intake. Most of my time was spent in teaching social etiquette and socially accepted good manners, table manners, politeness toward each other, opening and closing doors for each other, holding the door open for someone who was coming behind you. All these small acts of courtesy lead to a greater good within society because they help children to know and understand the meaning of consideration for others and respect for others. If we are to get anywhere with behaviour we need to get back to these simple fundamentals. Three words I use with helping children develop good behaviour, Consideration, Courtesy and persistence (on the part of the adults who are teaching them). Parents asked for advice, I used to say what kind of person do you want your child to grow up to be? A kind, thoughtful, considerate member of society or someone who is disrespectful, selfish, lazy and spiteful? IF they chose the first one I said then it will be hard work showing them the path toward that person. You must lead by example. If you don't care, can't be bothered then your child will become the second kind of person. It takes hard work, persistence, patience and care to become a good parent who strives to help their child become the best person they can be. Anyone can have a child but being a good parent is a long and difficult journey. You need to have a clear view of what kind of person you want your child to become. Even then there are no guarantees with all the influences of drugs and alcohol and peer pressure today. Oh well, lecture over but I disagree that it is all down to teaching at school, the home and parents have a part to play........
    pepper5 likes this.
  10. How right you are. I'm trying to survive my last three years as a business studies teacher (I'm also principal examiner for the A level exam board), I teach in a 14-18 school, having previously taught in an FE College where all my kids went on to HE. Average dad was an unemployed miner, education was the way forward. I came in to this job in later life, but have 14 years secondary under my belt.

    The majority of my parents do not attend parent's evening, particularly the ones I request to see. Average parent these days is a market trader or "white van man" who has made a few quid despite failing the "system". Too many of the kids I teach target the lowest common denominator in terms of achievement and behaviour and by the time I get them habits are entrenched.

    I do get occasional kids into LSE, Warwick et al, but fight low expectations (less than a third of my A level kids apply for Uni).

    Has the protaganist got any similarly simple solutions?
  11. No surprise but I am going to completely disagree with you. Poor behaviour results from:


    A total lack of support from SMT.

    Inconsistancies in how poor behaviour is dealt with (or not dealt with as the case my be)

    Poor behaviour starting in sink / bottom groups. Teachers just expected to get on with it.

    Undermining by other staff.


    Irrelevant curriculum.</ol>
  12. Oh dear sniffybear! You obviously have been fortunate enough to come across those pupils who simply do not want to tow the line no matter who you are, SMT or classteacher. Yes, motivating, fun lessons delivered by a well organised teacher with a consistent approach will help maintain and encourage good behaviour BUT there will always be those hard core disruptive pupils ready to squash your best made plans. I am just glad your not on my team as we all support each other through the challenging times.
  13. scilady

    scilady New commenter

    I agree absolutely with Mr Hyde, except it is not just an underclass problem: plenty of spoiled little princes and princesses in the middle classes who can be as disruptive too.
  14. scilady

    scilady New commenter

    I will take issue with the otherwise eminently sensible Dr Hyde on one point he raises... the NC is not "a grammar school construct"... it is far too low standard to be that, and thus many grammar schools ignore it apart for a couple of homeworks in April. It tells them absolutely nothing when virtually a whole year group gets the top level at KS3 without breaking sweat. It is aimed at the average but far too simple for the very able and far too hard for the underprivileged. Both these faults can inspire poor behaviour
  15. Hi Sniffybear

    Has a teaching assistant who has worked on a supply places in all classes from 0 to 11 (Year Groups) and having supported many children who have been identified as having "behaviour issues", I think your statement is too simplistic.

    Over the last 50 years more children have been identifieed with conditions that effect behaviour (Eg. ADH, ADHD, Taurets and various points on the Autistic Spectrum to name afew). As a result of the Every Child Matters Agenda and the government policy to include as many children in main stream schools, children who would have been placed in Pupil Referal Units or Special Schools, now find themselves in main stream classrooms. This should be welcomed.

    However the fear of being excluded is reduced. Taking the point that bad behaviour is the result of weak teaching and if your class does not behave you should get out of teaching raises two further issues. One tha same class can be excellently behaved for one "good teacher" and highly " disruptive for another "good teacher". Teachers like their pupils have different personalities, styles of teaching and learning and occassionly there is bound to be a clash.

    Secondly - is there a teacher who has never read a book on or sort advise on behaviour or classroom management ? The amount of books availablr and web sites like Rob Pelvin's (and yea I am plugging it because it is good) would be unneccessary and redundant in the world of education.

    Finally I would like to sugggest that good behaviour comes from a consistant whole school approach to discipline and management. This is achieved by a wholistic approach by all staff but it also adapts resources and work to the ability and level of any children with additional needs.

    I would like to thank the great number of teachers I have had the privalage to work with and their classes and the children with additional needs I have supported. All of you have been great individuals to work with and have proved that inclusive education works, with a "little help from your friends." Support for children with additional needs including behaviour issues has been welcomed by all these teachers.

    Comments from a Teaching Assistant.
  16. Whoever wrote this is a big bully!!!!

    You try teaching really poorly behaved pupils and tell us how you get on then, would love to know. mr or miss now it all.

    Im one of those teachers that yes can't get a permanent job im doing supply, IM NOT A BAD TEACHER becasue i can't get a full time position.

    Ive seen alot of pupils in lots of different schools, and with lots of types of behaviour, different systems in place, to try and help. smt is usually our last port of call, when we find it tough, we want support not a big kick in the teeth from people like you. we do the best we can... don't need your nasty comments to spoil our day.

    have you done supply? Do you teach or are you someone giving us a bad taste in the mouth.
  17. WOW, you must be a perfect teacher ha ha!! Please give me some advice of how I can be a brilliant teacher like you, with no bad behaviour, I envy you ha ha!! What a joke!!
  18. helenjj

    helenjj New commenter

    I have read the whole of this thread, it is a comment on management approaches to struggling teachers.

    I teach Mathematics. A crisis is looming. Too many new teachers are not getting the support they need and are either leaving or being elbowed out by management. Vacancies are increasing as 40% of teachers are nearing retirement in the next 5 years.

    Who is going to replace them? More inexperienced, unsupported NQTs from an ever diminishing pool?
  19. I don't think you can have worked in a school and genuinely believe the line that was trotted out to start this thread. The originator is clearly trying to provoke a response. The worry is that there are many people who don't work in schools but have positions of influence in education who do believe such simplistic lines. It's high time the unions launched a campaign to limit the involvement of external agencies in the running of schools, and to stop their members from being unfairly maligned and slandered on the basis of judgements by people who haven't worked in a classroom in 20 years or more. For the record, I have worked with some wonderful teachers who have been rated very highly but who have complained bitterly about the conduct of certain pupils.

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