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Poll: Rammstein & cultural appropriation

Discussion in 'Personal' started by Vince_Ulam, Mar 31, 2019.

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Who owns the Holocaust?

  1. Germany only

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Israel only

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Germany & Israel only

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Europe

    5 vote(s)
    100.0%
  1. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    For better or worse, the crimes of Nazi Germany are a significant marker in both, at least, German history & culture and Jewish history & culture yet the German musical group Rammstein has been attacked by the Israeli Foreign Ministry for using images reminiscent of these crimes in a musical video.

    Have Germans no right to own and transform elements of their own culture, even where these are crimes past which the German people & state have long since moved?

    You can watch the video here if you choose:

     
  2. Ivartheboneless

    Ivartheboneless Star commenter

    Ridiculous question, suggesting you will get the ridiculous replies that you deserve.
     
  3. sparklesparkle

    sparklesparkle Established commenter

    Not only that, it shows a deep ignorance of how the Holocaust is regarded in Germany, neo-Nazism and, well, just about everything.
     
  4. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    The Holocaust is not a significant marker in German history & culture? What a peculiar idea.
     
  5. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Clearly a popular song, the video has been viewed several hundred thousand times since this morning.
     
  6. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    agathamorse and Vince_Ulam like this.
  7. MAGAorMIGA

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    Who "owns the Holocaust"? The Nazis "own" the Holocaust. They were its architects, its instigators, its perpetrators. It is their crime, and will be laid at their door for evermore.

    Humanity owns the Holocaust. Within the story of tyranny, persecution, extermination and despair, there are within it wonderful stories of survival, of unquenchable optimism and the triumph of hope, of families who refused to be separated, of liberation and justice being meted out. The Holocaust teaches moral lessons, and those lessons must be learned by everyone. I feel we're in a world trying its best to unlearn them though.
     
  8. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Your link is blocked. Not sure if that is my browser or the link you posted.
     
  9. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Thanks for this. I missed the U-boat.
     
  10. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    It is over here.
     
    lanokia likes this.
  11. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    lanokia likes this.
  12. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Cheers... I shall have a peruse...

    [Never heard Rammstein before that I'm conscious of so this will be interesting]
     
  13. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    OK... so that video is mad... and glorious... and nuts... and glorious.

    So a German band make a reference to the Holocaust... but... I mean OK, maybe I'm missing something but my interpretation... Deutschland identifies now more with the victims of the Holocaust than ever with the Nazi thugs/scum that perpetrated. The figure of Germania is represented by a powerful black woman and the band, representing a range of victims of the Holocaust [I see pink, yellow and red stars], destroying the Nazi cancer that tarnished Germany's name ...

    The video expresses little affection or lamentation for the many versions of Germany and seems to be a repudiation of those Germany's. A generation reclaiming the term Deutschland maybe for a 21st century wiped clean of the filth of history? Indeed... as the horrors of German history are played out, the figure of Germania weeps for the pain inflicted by her people in their madness.

    It has a beauty to it... a mad, hyper-aware beauty... and I respect the artists for their work.

    As for the Holocaust... as with all sins perpetrated by our species upon each other, we all bear a sliver of ownership. I don't subscribe to a German Guilt Trip ideology. Any German born after the end of WWII is free of guilt in a real sense in my eyes. But they may carry it with them, knowing the actions of their parents and grandparents are also a part of them. But as humans we all carry the potential of Holocaust-yet-born... and to be aware of that... that is part of who we are as a species.
     
    Vince_Ulam and agathamorse like this.
  14. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Lead commenter

    If you've seen the Matrix you'll have heard them in that (the club scene and another part where they played du hast that I can't recall).
     
    agathamorse likes this.
  15. agathamorse

    agathamorse Occasional commenter

    I'll have to give this a listen. I enjoyed Amerika by Rammstein, a song about how American culture us taking over in countries around the world.
     
  16. Spiritwalkerness

    Spiritwalkerness Star commenter

    They are visually 'interesting' and loud. Don't stand near the front at gigs unless your wearing waterproofs.
     
    agathamorse and cassandramark2 like this.
  17. cassandramark2

    cassandramark2 Senior commenter

    I’ve seen them four times and would second the advice above. Best live band ever! Plenty of pyrotechnics and...other stuff.
     
    Vince_Ulam and agathamorse like this.
  18. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    For those interested, here are the lyrics which are sung during the sequence containing Holocaust elements:

    'Germany
    My heart in flames
    Want to love you, want to damn you


    Germany
    Your breath is cold
    So young
    And yet so old
    Germany
    '

    Rammstein, Kerrang.com, 2019.

    Those first three lines seem a fair statement of how many Germans, and friends of Germany, feel about German militarism in the 20th Century.
     

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