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Discussion in 'Primary' started by ROSIEGIRL, Feb 21, 2012.

  1. mystery10

    mystery10 Occasional commenter

    It's interesting Thumbie, cos you say the children I work with find phonics difficult. Why do you assume that? I didn't say that, and their educational background doesn't suggest that.
    Well, the answer is, THEY DON'T. They find phonics relatively easy. They just haven't been taught very much of it for very many minutes per week, and they've been kept in groups where they learn the same phonemes over and over again when they were capable of more, and then sent home with "look say" reading books which contained every GPC in the English language, and given flashcards of whole words which they think they know but then when the word comes up in a book they muddle them all up if they look at all similar.
    Also the parents haven't had SP explained to them in any useful way.
  2. PS 'Sell me a bottle'
    I can selll you a bottle and the price is zero pence depending of course on whether or not (1) you are a teacher and (2) which Year group you teach.
  3. 1) I am a teacher
    2)teach in nursery,/ reception year 1,2,3,4,5,...........
    so where do I lay my hands on a bottle of yer hard stuff?
  4. So far so good. Do you have any Year 2 children who you would categorise as Non or near-non readers who in your judgement, are extremely unlikely to achiieve Level 2 at the next KS1 reading test and if so, how many?

  5. Mystery, you say they find phonics 'relatively easy'. Relative to what? If phonics is easy for them, why have they failed to pick it up as well as the other children? I'm assuming you work with the strugglers. Or, is it that the other children use other strategies (relatively) better, and have therefore ended up as better readers, but the children who find phonics easy have found reading difficult? I'm mystified, mystery.Perhaps these children are a control group that haven't had the same teaching as their peers.Or is it just that they were not being taught phonics properly before and now you are teaching it properly. Some argue that if children don't learn to read through SP then the teaching wasn't proper SP and just needs doing again. Is that your stance? Gosh, I think we've found our way back to Michael Rosen's article.
  6. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Are you serious?
  7. Am currently teaching 4 poor readers in a phonics recovery programme. They are in the last cohort in the school who did not have SP in R Y1 and 2. Their reading has improved immeasurably since September. We are currently working through phase 5. Their confidence in attempting to read has improved in tandem with the number of sounds they have learned.
    Their previous strategies for reading were very similar... lots of guesswork. I have noticed that they all have a poor "memory" of the shape of words. When reading a text with an unfamiliar word that is repeated, they take many more "goes" to remember it than most children. It seems to me that their peers had overtaken them because they had better shape memories of words.
    I work hard to get them to use all of their reading tools (I call them that): phonics AND reading on for context and meaning. Phonics has been the key for these children... it gives them a starting point.
    I use nonsense words all of the time. I say they are nonsense. I explain that I want to check out how well they have learned sounds so I help them with the sounds they still find tricky. It isn't a big deal. It is just a handy way to assess whether I am doing my job.
    Guesswork has not been a strategy that served these children well. I want them to be able to have some more tools.

  8. This has been a position stated on this forum many a time by SP enthusiasts.
  9. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    No once again thumbie your interpretation of what people actual say and what you think they are saying don't correlate

  10. Mmm... In other words my interpretation of their words is different from my interpretation of their words. Interesting....
  11. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    That about sums up trying to debate with you ... well done!
    I think I'll write it my diary as a special occasion
  12. Fascinating. And how will your phrase the event I wonder?
  13. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    thumbie twaddle talk Thursday
  14. Yes, that sounds about your level.
  15. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    It's in your honour
  16. That all sounds very reasonable Sunpainter. Nobody would argue with the need for phonics, but many, like yourself, feel that using SP on its own, is not sufficient.
  17. Nobody would argue with the need for phonics, but many, like yourself, feel that using SP on its own, is not sufficient.
    Now that's a statement that I can agree with. What I disagree about SP is its dominacne and exclusivity which has no basis in logic given that so many children leave school unnecesarily unable to read or write confidently. Given also of course the fact that any child predicted to achieve only L3 English at KS2 can, even at this late stage still quite easily achieve L4 providing his/her teacher is not a phonics zealot.
    If they are, then I'm afraid its the dustbin of illiteracy for them!

  18. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Eddie welcome to thumbie twaddle talk Thursday [​IMG]
  19. ???
  20. I have seen SP used in 5 different schools so far.
    I have met NOBODY who teaches SP as the only strategy.
    If you actually read and use Letters and Sounds, you will find it is not just full of nonsense words.
    It IS given high priority... but it is NOT the ONLY strategy that children are taught.
    It WORKS.
    All of the struggling readers in my school PREDATE the use of SP in the school.
    I don't wish to enter into a debate with people who treat this as a forum for insulting one another.

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