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Petition: Make it obligatory for teachers to hold Qualified Teaching Status

Discussion in 'Education news' started by FrankWolley, Jul 27, 2016.

  1. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    It was actually a holistic understanding of children that I initially mentioned, and which was immediately misinterpreted

    Quite different from a holistic understanding of teaching and learning.
     
  2. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    Name one.

    You are awesome. Well done.

    You are an awesome youth working former teacher. Well done.

    My 'disparaging' comments have consistently referenced the many excellent teachers, paid and unpaid there are in and out of our schools. I have argued a case for more brilliant people to be encouraged into the profession.

    You, like a few others on this forum, find it difficult to contribute to a debate without taking issues personally. You resort to ridicule and waffle. You jump from point to point without contributing much of value to the debate itself.

    How about answering a direct question: Ignoring issues of pay etc. would you rather your child was taught by a brilliant teacher with no formal teaching qualification, or that they were taught by a recently qualified teacher that the kids hate and is only in it for the money?
     
  3. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    This post is a disgrace.

    I suggest you retract the pejorative youth worker nonsense pretty quick. I am a qualifed teacher, and an expert examiner with many years of experience, and I am employed as a teacher in my current school, working with very challenging young people and getting them qualifications with real currency.

    You have made yourself look angry, bitter, and to say you have a chip on your shoulder about teachers being professionally qualified is a huge understatement.

    I have taken nothing personally and have explained my position in reasonable detail. You have just repeatedly said something along the lines of brilliant people should be teachers and don't need a formal and standardised route into the profession. You make a very good case for having one.,
     
    Vince_Ulam likes this.
  4. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    I have struck a nerve. My apologies. However if you are unable to enter debate without resorting to the very things of which you accuse others... step away from the keyboard.

    This is correct. And true.

    Once again, well done. Your disdain for youth workers is interesting.

    You have taken much personally (check your responses).

    You haven't provided any sensible argument that I can see, just some little rants. In fact you flat out ignored the most direct and relevant question pertaining to the OP.
     
  5. Landofla

    Landofla Established commenter

    @redlamp2 I have just jumped to page 4 of the thread so my apologies if this has already been discussed. I wanted to discuss a point you made offering @Scintillant a choice of teacher. I'm sure most people would rather their child be taught by a brilliant teacher. Full stop.

    In my opinion, the problem with allowing non-qualified people to teach is that less control remains over teaching standards. I know that having QTS doesn't make you a brilliant teacher, but hopefully it has helped wittle out the poorer folk. We would all hope that schools would employ the best candidate, if the QTS requirement were to be removed, but I genuinely believe that most would plump for the cheapest option. I know that is what has happened in a few academies in my neck of the woods. GCSE courses are being taught by unqualified, recent graduates because they can be paid at less than 20k a year. Not to say that those teachers aren't brilliant, though for less than 20k a year I bloody wouldn't be!
     
  6. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    I agree.

    Standards are important and need to be ensured.

    I also agree there is an issue with regard to budget pressures (and now less savory interests) making a lesser skilled and experienced teacher a more attractive proposition. However this in itself makes a nonsense of the original argument that requiring a limited form of QTS will ensure high standards, when so clearly it doesn't and won't.

    I would be in favour of some sort of ongoing assessment of teacher practice and a need for some form of registration/licence to practice. But I think the encouragement of people from outside the profession is more important now than ever because without intending to be patronising or disregarding the abilities of the young, we are fast reaching a point at which children are mostly being taught by people barely older than they. Therefore I think there should be more entry points, not less. Albeit as you point out, there are broader challenges to persuade people to switch career.
     
  7. les25paul

    les25paul Star commenter

    In this I am in complete agreement. I came into teaching after a career in the chemical industry and personally believe that "real world" experience of the subject you are teaching is of immense value almost to the point of being vital, Whilst I can accept there are many very good teachers straight from university I believe that those with a previous career have something extra in their skillset.

    It was something of a surprise when I first went for interviews after my PGCE that members of SLT on selection panels had little interest in my non-teaching career. Unfortuantly the gulf of understanding some members of mangement in schools have between what happens in schools and in the the world outside Education comes as no surprise now.

    BUT, I didn't walk straight from an industrial chemistry laboratory into a classroom without any training or gaining some teaching experience. And there is no way a teacher could walk straight into an industrial setting without training (Health and Safety would have a melt down). So some sort of teacher tyraining is essential.
     
    wanet, redlamp2 and stupot101 like this.
  8. les25paul

    les25paul Star commenter

    (Sorry I haven't got the hang of multi-quoting yet, :oops:, perhaps I need more training)

    Yes that would do it, but now you are leading to some form of teaching qualification. You can call this QTS or some other name thats just details the important point is that the person concerned is receiving teacher training and meeting a standard.

    The real problem I have with unqualified teachers is not the otherwise qualified person coming from another sector passing on their skills. Its with the poorly or underqualified person teaching classes for extended periods of time. its not supposed to happen but we all know it does, I have heard of people without a Maths GCSE teaching year 11 Maths and of students going a whole term or more without a knowledgeable person taking their lessons.

    Outside of schools qualifications and training are important, they should be regarded with the same (if not more) reverence in schools.
     
    cissy3, sabrinakat and stupot101 like this.
  9. les25paul

    les25paul Star commenter

    I'm not sure how the words "I agree" appeared in both my quotes, I really must resit that "inserting quotes" training :eek:
     
  10. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    @les25paul yes I'm much in agreement with this and yes I guess that does ultimately involve some form of QTS.

    My issue is with the point of entry.
    • Somebody with industry experience (and life experience) will have a certain amount to offer to a classroom.
    • Somebody that has gone straight from university through a PGCE will also have a certain amount to offer.
    Neither at that point is likely to be much of a teacher. The NQT then has a year to gain their QTS and become a qualified teacher. I can see no reason that a person (with relevant transferable skills/experience) should not be able to do the same - teach for a year, learn and prove their worth and gain QTS. If they're not suitable then by all means provide additional teacher training for them to access should they wish. Likewise for people with industry experience but no experience or aptitude of working with children. But for those that are able there should be minimal obstacles.
     
  11. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    Don't apologise for "striking a nerve". Please take back the pejorative reference to me being a "yoof worker". Youth work is a valuable career, however, I am an experienced teacher and expert examiner for a major exam board and I resent the accusation I am anything else.

    I have not ranted, but have taken the time to explain why I think a professional standard of qualification is so important and have done so sensibly. You have acknowledged that all you have done is repeatedly said something along the lines of brilliant people should be teachers and don't need a formal and standardised route into the profession. People who are very knowledgeable and passionate about something are just as able to show this via a professional qualification as anyone else is. If they meet the standards, then they should be allowed to enter the profession.

    Learning and teaching are very difficult to observe. What might look good to us often results in poor levels of learning, and vice versa. How much impact does a teacher actually have? How much of a pupils' performance is down to a teacher? These are all crucial questions in assessing just how effective a teacher is. We are very poor at doing this as it is, without the profession becoming less structured and rigourous. I would argue for a longer and deeper period of training to give entrant a fuller insight into young people, their learning and our teaching and how it all fits together. Brilliant people are fine when the young people in front of them are all ears and keen to listen to every word but when the environment is more challenging, things can quickly go wrong. Teaching is much more than just getting over your love of whatever the subject is, even in a good school.
     
  12. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    You're having two debates here. One is the reasoned, sensible arguments you are providing in response to the topic. Unfortunately this debate only appears to be taking place in your own mind. The second 'debate' is that which can be read back here. Angry little defensive rants that contribute little other than some reference to how brilliant you are yourself.

    I think a professional standard is important too. As explained several times (as you point out) I don't believe this is guaranteed by a PGCE.

    With regard to the points you have just made, I fundamentally disagree. The curriculum was introduced because teaching was ****. PGCEs serve as a relatively cheap and fast method of providing the workforce. Neither ensure standards. Instead we move towards a one size fits all approach with the training geared up to aid compliance.

    I would prefer that teachers were provided with far greater freedom. However doing so depends on them being highly skilled. This is primarily an issue of recruitment and retention, rather than training (albeit some training of course being required). Independent schools have taken advantage of this forever.

    I never said a love of a subject was sufficient. A qualification is only as good as the process involved in obtaining the qualification. I don't see why you should resent being accused of doing youth work. My original reference to it was not intended as derisory to the role - it was in reference to those I have worked with who were often very hung up on the notion of accreditation and qualification regardless of how little value those things actually had for the young people they supported. I suspected this may have rubbed off on you.

    QTS does not make you a good teacher. I'm interested in good teachers.
     
  13. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    Actually the term "yoof worker" is pretty derogatory don't you think.

    To add my 2p worth - I've been teaching for quite a few years ago but I had several other jobs before that. My experience of doing other things has certainly helped my teaching.
     
    wanet likes this.
  14. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    There seems to be a huge amount of projection here. And again you are being offensive. My comments present clear reasoning as to why a rigourous training and preparation of teachers is necessary. Nothing has "rubbed off" on me from "yoof workers". I have taught here and overseas to all age groups and have seen a lot of teaching of many types. It is simply experience.

    You have also not apologised for labelling me as a "yoof worker", which says a lot about your attitude to fellow teachers as well as young people. As a result, I am gladly withdrawing from this conversation and engaging further with your resentment at fully qualified teachers.
     
  15. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    As a former yoof worker...no.

    Unless you are intent on receiving it as such of course. And that is evidently so.
     
  16. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    You use the 'says a lot' line a great deal, and yet seemingly read very little.

    I note that you became so amazing through the value of your experience. Tricky to pick that up in a lecture innit...
     
  17. cissy3

    cissy3 Star commenter


    Exactly.

    This is what this petition is really about, and why I signed it.
     
    Scintillant and FrankWolley like this.

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