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Petition: Make it obligatory for teachers to hold Qualified Teaching Status

Discussion in 'Education news' started by FrankWolley, Jul 27, 2016.

  1. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    My children have left school. Whilst their teachers may still have been learning (as I was up until I retired) at least they had been through training to weed out those who really can't do it, and had time to learn the essentials before being set loose on my children.

    And, as you can see if you bother to look, the petition isn't mine. I just advertised it to fellow teachers.

    FWIW as I'm retired and my children are grown up, I suppose I can afford to say 'not my problem'... ;)

    Oh, and I'd say 'your' petition is bonkers....o_O
    curlyk likes this.
  2. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    Without question. Quite a bit of support though.
  3. wanet

    wanet Star commenter

    With which bit?
  4. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    That's says everything about your attitude to the teaching profession
    mayurbuddy likes this.
  5. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    Teaching to groups of young people of varying ages and with varying needs and demands is difficult. It required more than just enthusiasm and a bit of subject knowledge.

    Training is never wasted. It helps to foster a wider appreciation of your profession, imbues trainees with a deep, wider reaching understanding of teaching and applies some sort of standard to the whole process.

    Getting trained by Dave, the young science teacher, in his spare time - a man who's rushed off his feet, hasn't actually been a teacher very long himself, is stressed to the eyeballs and is doing it to further his own career or because he's been talked in to it, is never going to improve things much,

    It is, however, cheap. You already have Dave.
    delnon likes this.
  6. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    You haven't sat through much CPD then. Or you're a consultant because a great deal of it is nothing other than a waste of time.

    Some people are suited to be great teachers. Some never will be, regardless of how much training they do. It's what makes the profession unique (and what should be focused on rather than pointless comparison to other professions).
  7. wanet

    wanet Star commenter

    Still wondering why:
    Doesn't apply to plummers?
  8. les25paul

    les25paul Star commenter

    That argument applies equally to any profession or role. it does not make Teaching unique (although other factors might) and does not justify scrapping or keeping QTS.

    For example I am not suited to be a bus driver and I never will be. regardless of how much training I do. Other people will be well suited to be excellent bus drivers, but you still don't allow them to do so before any driver training and passing a test,
  9. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    Sorry but that's nonsense. Almost anyone can train to be a bus driver. You need to learn to drive and operate a bus. That's pretty much it.

    Teaching, despite earlier protests by some, IS a vocation. There are of course plenty who see it only as a job. Some end up doing it because staying in the academic bubble is comfortable, and for those QTS is a ticket for them to do so. Doesn't make them good teachers. They don't tend to last too long either, although like a limpet some are surprisingly hard to budge.
  10. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    I'm glad you got the joke in the end - and added a nice one of your own too!
  11. num3bers

    num3bers Occasional commenter

    I havent read all of this, so I am not sure where the plumbers comment has come from.

    However, I know something about plumbers and plumbers "training" and "qualifications" - as well as the regulations concerning them.

    Plumbers , in fact, uniquely do not have to be qualified or even trained properly.
    Anyone can call themselves a plumber and practice. This is not so for gas fitters or electricians by the way.

    Plumbers used to be trained on the job with a four year apprenticeship. C&G was never obligatory. Later C&G became the plumbing qualification but many plumbers ( also still working) never had the qualification but they were apprenticed ( and so knew the job " Time Served" was the phrase).

    However, neither of these routes are required in order to be a plumber even now.

    At one point (1980's) government schemes were turning out plumbers on six months training ( with a certificate). This got up the noses of the Time Served guys because those six month trainee were
    "qualified" but knew absolutely nothing about real plumbing, where as the time served guys were being told they were not qualified because they didn't have a qualification ( not uncommon if you apprenticed in the 1960's/ 1970's). The situation remains because nowadays, apprenticeships are few and far between.

    Added to that are a whole army of people who just simply set up as a plumber with some minor knowledge of DIY and just get into the job - or may be skilledin some other aspect of buildin g and "pick up" plumbing.

    There are good and bad amongst all of them. Should we stop the good ones, who are not "qualified" by some pre decided bit of paper from working just because they do not conform?

    Quite similar to teaching really.

    There are teachers out there who have walked into a classroom probably as graduates and just took up the job. Others do it because they have picked it up as part of their daily work and do not have a qualification LSA's might follow this method and then get jobs as unqualifed teachers. Others may have the wrong qualification - being HE/FE teachers for example and some overseas teachers ( and why do we accept EU teaching qualifications and not those from the USA or Canada as good to go?) . Others went to College and took a qualification. Still others did the "Time Served" route maybe in an independent school or before the rules changed for PGCE requirements ( which for some would have been 1989)
    There are good and bad amongst both surely?

    As for other jobs - well doctors are now being replaced by "physician associates" Its unlikely you know whether the person you are seeing is "qualified" or not. Its true of many professions now.

    So, really is there any point to teachers being "qualifed"? And what qualification? I would rather have a good teacher , who has learned the job and can do it well teach , than someone straight out of six months in a teaching college who needs to be shown everything.
  12. num3bers

    num3bers Occasional commenter

    I have now read the thread. I have to say I agree more with this seemingly overlooked comment.

    The big problem in teaching is , I think,teachers who are ( so called ) qualified but teaching outside of their subject expertise.
  13. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter


    and the more entry points for people with suitable expertise... the better.
  14. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    I have sat through lots of CPD.

    Teaching should become more professional, not less. CPD should address crucial areas of how learning can be "seen" and evaluated, what can be gleaned from watching others teach, what judgements are valid, how much impact can teachers have etc. Making it simpler and easier will not improve things. I now hear and know of people being mentored by others who are far from experienced. It is cheap and getting cheaper. It will never be an improvement on a professional standard of qualification.

    I have been a professional teacher for 20 years. In the classroom for all of that time. Turned down promotions to teach on more than one occasion. I now work with young people who haven't engaged with education and are at danger of exclusion. We achieve excellent outcomes.

    I have lost count of the people who think teaching is easy as long as you know a subject and have enthusiasm. They often make lousy teachers as they cannot deal with people not sharing that enthusiasm or not even wanting to learn. In a nice school, you'll get away with it. But we are not training rounded professionals who have a holistic understanding of children, by going down that route.
    stupot101 likes this.
  15. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    A qualification is only one tool for this. Not the be all and end all. The majority of any professional's professional conduct has little to do with their qualification. It relates to their practice.

    Making it simpler for people with the relevant skills and expertise to enter the profession (and replace those who don't) will very much improve things.

    It is cheaper to squeeze young students through a PGCE than it is to recruit well experienced and skilled people from other sectors. Nowadays it's borderline profitable for some universities.

    I have lost count of the number of yoof workers I've met with an unhealthy obession for qualifications and status. Nowhere did I ever claim teaching was easy or that enthusiasm was the only requirement.

    Now this is interesting. I'd love to attend a course that taught me to have a holistic understanding of children. Where can I book onto that?
  16. LiamD

    LiamD Occasional commenter

  17. num3bers

    num3bers Occasional commenter

    But thats an FE teaching certificate and does not carry Qualified Teacher Status ( QTS).
    So any teacher who gains it will be unqualified in a school .In order to obtain recognition they will then have to work in an FE and gain QTLS ( which takes a year or two more) and then they will have "Parity of Esteem" and be able to work in state schools but they will still not have QTS ...... same old story there.
  18. LiamD

    LiamD Occasional commenter

    I wasn't making any claims. Just answering RL2's request for a course on holistic approaches to teaching (and taking the opportunity for a gentle wind-up).
    les25paul likes this.
  19. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    Thank you :D:D

    I've been to Burnley once. That was enough.
    LiamD and les25paul like this.
  20. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    Your post is full of your prejudices. Again, your response does little to advance your case.

    One of the few useful courses I have been on, was about gaining a holistic understanding of children. It was fantastic and is perhaps the biggest influence on the way I engage with you people and get positive results where many others have failed.

    I am not a yoof worker. I have taught science to all abilities for many years in mainstream and still teach disaffected mainstream pupils. Your disparaging comments again say much about your attitude to the level of professionalism you think teachers need or should display
    Vince_Ulam likes this.

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