1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hi Guest, welcome to the TES Community!

    Connect with like-minded professionals and have your say on the issues that matter to you.

    Don't forget to look at the how to guide.

    Dismiss Notice

pass degree but 2:2 in masters, is this enough for PGCE

Discussion in 'Thinking of teaching' started by megryan49, May 11, 2011.

  1. You're right, I will have to do that once my transcripts arrive, so thanks for that, I guess I was just hoping for some reassurance in the mean tim.
  2. Your experience MAY swing it for you, but I know there is a big drive to get people who are academically high achieving into teaching. Personally, I think it is all about experience, and grades don't necessarily mean you aren't bright or able academically (as there can be many factors e.g. physical/mental illness, etc.)

    It totally depends on your uni, some look more for academic acheivement, some are more interested in experience, some are more interested in potential!
    good luck!
  3. No.

    It is a requirement that all teachers have a minimum of a 2.2 in their degree.
  4. A bit of looking online meant I stumbled across this, not sure if it helps...

    The old system was >70% 1H, 62-69% 2H1, 55-61% 2H2, >50% 3H (though only some colleges/faculties award the grade of 3H).
  5. Just realised that where I found that was from a post from you in another forum, so I guess you know that already!
  6. Sorry, me again! Found this, which confirms what that guy said.

  7. Yes, I've been all over trying to get to the bottom of this but I think it will be clearer when I get my transcripts and then contact mmu.... Here's hoping :) thanks again.
  8. I'm doing it in a Yorkshire university. As other poster have said although the university may say a min 2.2 or honours degree they can wave these requirments if they want you on the course.
    I've been accepted on to a master degree for next year even though the course states a min 2.2.

  9. Accepted on a PGCE or a Master degree course? Michael Gove has made it very clear he wants people with minimum 2.2 degree classifications on teacher training.
  10. hummi7883

    hummi7883 New commenter

    oh..then what about overseas qualifications...naric does not provide any grades. .?
    its jus a degree equivalent.....ho do colleges assess then??
  11. Both. I was accepted onto a PGCE last year and successfully completed the course this week [​IMG] Earlier in the year I was accepted onto a p/t masters starting Sept 2011.

    In my honest opinion Grove is an idiot. I only got a ordinary degree as I am dyslexic, which I didn't know at the time, so I didnt get the help I required with structuring extended pieces of work so I failed my dissertation. I tried to get tested for the condition when I started my degree but was turned away as they thought most students were trying it on to get free stuff [​IMG]. I was tested at the start of my PGCE and with a few adjustment to the way I learn have sailed through this course
    I was interviewed last week for my first full time teaching position and was told that I was an outstanding candidate and was miles better than any one else they interviewed! So degree grades really have no correlation with how good a teacher some one will be.
  12. mickymilan

    mickymilan New commenter

    Due to mitigating circumstances, I got an ordinary degree. I've had 99, 96 and 94% in some of my A-level exams and was on a high 2:1 after my second year at uni, qualifying for the masters course until things went down hill for reasons outside my control. Do you think I'm smart enough to do a Masters? And by the way, last week I got a job at my first interview while among 8 others, several of which had 1st class masters degree's but were shiite teachers.
  13. Nobody would disagree with anything you have said. But with more applicants than places there must be a filtering system. And policy is made at the level of tens of thousands: you must consider the workload that would go into considering all candidates if all degrees were considered. Also you mention special cases which anyone would allow for and my guess is it will still be at the university's discretion. Candidates with lower classifications but great experience and a proven record of ability and performance will get a chance.

    @hummi yes, I think you are right next year. In New Zealand Auckland University say over 55% on your transcript which is a higher 2.2.
  14. Did I not say in my original post that I think in cases where there have been mitigating circumstances, they should be taken into consideration and so lower than a 2:2 should be considered? I think you'll find that if you read my post, that I did. I have in no way questioned your ability to study a Masters or teach, as I've said there are exceptions to what I said and especially where there have been mitigating circumstances. You seem to have taken it very personally and got slightly defensive about it when in my original post I clearly stated that I didn't include situations like yours in that view.
  15. To 700W..

    Well you've said that a degree is such a short time that it doesn't really show how well a person is able to study or learn, but a PGCE or Masters is a much shorter course... Unless there are mitigating circumstances, what is the difference between an UG degree and a Masters? Both are at university, so if you haven't been able to succeed at university once, you must surely see how that, rightly or wrongly, reflects on your ability to succeed at university again at an even higher level.

    I don't entirely see why you're bringing reasons such as bereavements and health problems into it when, as I said in my previous post just before this, I clearly said in my post that mitigating circumstances should be taken into consideration.

    Yes, there are people who have been able to achieve a 2:1 at Undergrad level who haven't made it at Postgrad level. That shows just how hard it is and how much pressure there is. So if someone struggles that much at UG level that they get a 3rd or just a pass, likeliness is that, unless there were mitigating circumstances, studying at Masters level is going to be just as much of a struggle.

    I completely agree there there is far more to a good teacher and teaching than just a degree classification, but you have got to be able to see how in an environment such as this where places for Primary courses are extremely competitive, where there have been reports that show that teachers and subject knowledge are not at a good enough level, where students aren't achieving as they should, the Government is going to have to consider how to raise the bar for trainee teachers. The university have no idea about your ability to study beyond taking into consideration your UG degree classification and references from your university. So like it or not, in the majority of cases, whether or not the Government says that you need a pass or a 2:2, the university are going to look a lot less favourably on a 3rd or a pass than anything else. Unless there are mitigating circumstances or there has been a fair period of time since your degree, then your degree classification will, like it or not, reflect on the impression they have of you and your ability to study at Postgraduate level. I know lecturers for PGCEs at both Primary and Secondary level and I've spoken to them about this before, whether it's the Governments policy to accept a 2:2 or a pass, your classification at degree level is considered and judged.

    I haven't said that all those who haven't achieved a 2:2 would not make good teachers or that there aren't mitigating circumstances which should be taken into consideration even if you didn't manage to get a 2:2 or above.
  16. The sifting panel often don't know whether the degree classification was because of mitigating circumstances or not so this shouldn't make any difference, I didn't know the reason for my classification until I started my PGCE so this couldn't of been taken into acoount. So if the 2.2 ruling was in place I wouldn't have have been considered and my future pupils would be missing out on an 'outstanding' teacher. I also think whether the reasons for your grades are mitigating circumstance or pure lazyness shouldn't really matter - people make mistakes and they should be allowed a second chance. As long as they've moved on and learnt form their actions they should be given further opportunities to succeed.
    My experience of the PGCE is that it is much much easier than studying for a degree. In fact it has been the easiest course that I have ever completed due to the fact that it is heavily practical based and the teaching style is completely different to how I was taught during my degree.
    I think it is foolish to compare a PGCE to an UG degree as apart from them being taught in the same kind of institution from my own experiences the learning and assesment styles are completely different. Instead of being lost in a lecture hall of hundreds the majority of university sessions take place in a personal environment of around 15 students. Instead of just sitting and listening whilst someone talks at you for a few hours a week you are actively involved in whole day workshops and task based lessons and spend most of the course actively involved in teaching practice. Therefore just because someone didn't thrive on their UG doesn't mean that they won't thrive on a PGCE. 50% of my overall assessement is based on my teacher practice and portfolio, 25% on presentations and only 25% of my overall grade is based on academic style essays.
    As most of the learning takes place on the job during teaching practice show good you are at writing essays will not give an accurate prediction of how well you are going to succeed on a PGCE. This is why most of the 'academic' PGCE studentsI have known have struggled with the course.
    I believe that PGCE students should be chosen on their ability to teach rather than their ability to achieve a high class degree. I know that there are a lot of applicants and there needs to be a way of shortlisting but teaching experience, then classroom experience, your degree subject and your over all learning journey should all take presidence over your UG degree classification.
    I also believe that one of the reasons students have poor literacy and numeracy levels is because many PGCE students have been picked on their grades rather than their teaching ability and there simply isn't enough good teachers out there. Making teaching a masters or 2.2 only profession isn't necessarily going to change that.

  17. Well you have a whole section of your application for personal statements, if you haven't done so well at your degree and there are mitigating circumstances, you can put them in there somewhere and then yes, the panel would know.

    How can you say that if you only got a 3rd or a pass because of pure laziness that it shouldn't reflect on you?! I'm sorry but you're dreaming!! If you've fluffed up your degree because you just couldn't be bothered to put the effort in, how on earth is a university meant to know that you won't do the same thing again? I'm sorry but if I was looking to employ someone for any type of job or looking for students for any course and they said that, that was the reason for them almost failing or only getting a third then like it or not that's going to reflect extremely badly on them. It wouldn't outright dismiss them from consideration but they'd have a hell of a lot to make up for.

    Well you may think it's foolish but I don't. Personally I think it's foolish that you can't see a link between the two or that a PGCE is harder. You may not have found it harder but for the majority of people it is. It's a highly intensive year that places a great deal of demands and pressure on your time and energy, if you couldn't be bothered to put in the effort at UG level where you spend something like 14 hours a week in uni and you still don't do so well then, unless there's mitigating circumstances, I would have to question whether it's going to be any different on a Postgraduate course where you have to be in uni or school all day during the week, plan in your own time and keep reflective diaries, complete tasks, paperwork and Masters level essays.

    No, but your ability to study at UG level and your ability to write essays gives an insight into the likely ability you will have or not have studying at Masters level.

    Well like it or not, your degree plays a part in that. It's not just me sitting here saying that. There are a number of universities that, despite the Government saying you only need a pass, will only accept a 2:2 or above. And now the Government is considering saying that too, though I think it's that if you have less than that you will have to fund yourself. What good is your degree subject if you failed to get more than 49% in it? They need to be taken in equal consideration.

    If your ability to write essays is unimportant, then why do a large number of universities ask you to do a timed essay at interview? It's because, whether you wish to accept it or not, it IS a part of the course and it HAS to be taken into consideration when selecting candidates.

    Whether you think that your degree classification reflects on your suitability as a possible PGCE student and teacher or not, you have to accept that whether you like it or not, it is taken into consideration and in a situation where it is so much more difficult to gain PGCE places (at least on certain courses) if you don't have at least a 2:2 and there weren't mitigating circumstances in a time where the majority of students leave with a 2:2 or above, it will put other candidates at an advantage over you. If you can prove that despite that, you have enough experience and time since to show that you have changed since that time, fine but I wouldn't expect someone fresh out of uni with a pass or a 3rd to be very likely to get a PGCE place in the majority of places.
  18. As I mentioned in a previous post the student might not know that their degree class was because of mitigating circumstances when they apply. I didn't. I was on for a 2.2 in the November of my final year so if I'd applied then I would have had any idea of what was going to happen and wouln't be able to declare it on the personal statement, .
    I've just completed my PGCE so I have direct experience of both rather than just speculating. I found the PGCE a lot easier.- a lot of the students on my course agree with me, Maybe you'll feel the same after next year, maybe you won't. If you've had direct expereince of working full time whilst still studying you probally won't find it that bad. If your used to being busy for around 6 hours of lectures a week then having the rest of your time to do as you like then it might be a shock to your system and you probally are going to find it slightly harder.
    This is irrelevant as students opt into the masters level element. It wasn't even an option to study at masters level at my university.
    Once you start your course you will find that essay writting takes up a tiny amount of your time compared to your other commitments such as actually foing the job (teaching)
    If your English skills are an important part of your course like an English PGCE then this is standard as your writting skills are an important part of your ability to teach that subject. They university wont be able to use the test to give an accurate reflection on how well you will complete your course work as you will complete your course work in a completely different way - spending weeks researching the content, gathering quotes, drafting and redrafting-you won't be given a title and expected to complete the piece of work within the day. The on the day essay tasks are a way of testing your basic writting skills and a way of assessing your knowledge of the essay title. I didn't undertake a writting test for my current course or for the course that I applied for at Sheffield Hallam so from my experiences of this isn't a big part of the selection process. I was offered a place on both courses depsite my degree class so thankfully they didn't by into this academic snobbery that seems to be flying around.
    This comment really worried me. As a teacher I believe that everyone, despite their background, should be encouraged to realise their dreams and reach their full potent.Id hate for my future children to be taught by someone who felt that just because they went through a bad patch certain doors should be closed for them forever. Just because someone didn't try as hard as they could during their degree doesn't mean that they can't learn from this and move onand succeed on a PGCE.
    The governement are also considering changing the entire PGCE course so instead of it being based at a university most of the learning takes place on the job in schools - this is because too many NQTs are very good at the academic side and do not have the correct practical skills needed to thrive. I do admit that this does give mixed messages with reagrds to their 2.2 ideas but, as no suprise I fully support this idea. Maybe the drop out rate for NQTs wouldn't be as high if they were made to spend more time in schools before applying for their first post.
    Once your in the job know one will care how well or not you can write an academic essay. Your teaching skills and ability to build relationships with the young people in your care will be far more important.
    I feel that I am going round in circles with carolineg86. As I have made mhy opinions clear I won't be repating myself again on this thread. I feel that we need to agree to disagree.
    Luckily there are lots of PGCE tutors out there who are willing to give people with thirds and ordinary degrees a chance. I really hope that this is allowed to continue in the future or a generation of fantastic teachers may be lost

  19. I haven't read all of the above (as there is a lot of it) and so I am basing my answer on the original question.
    I have a 3rd class hons (in Maths) gained in 1998 and a 61% average MSc in a non-curriculum subject gained in 2006.
    I have been offered and accepted a place on a PGCE primary course, so there are institutions that will accept this level of qualification. Best to be honest and upfront with your institution though.
    Maybe the MSc did trump the BSc but I think it was more the passion and commitment of my application / interview that impressed the institution.

  20. Thanks James for that, I will be onto admissions as soon as I receive my transcript but that was a very helpful sensible reply.
    Also Krompa, it sounds as though we are in very simialr situations, so fingers crossed that my conditional offer will become an unconditional one.

Share This Page