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Old school PE/new school PE

Discussion in 'Physical education' started by Foneypharaoh, May 25, 2011.

  1. Never too old to learn. If I see a new drill I will nick it and adapt it everywhere. Other than that, what is the difference between old and new school? keeping upo with modern coaching drills does no harm, but overall I can't see any real differences.

  2. Sport22

    Sport22 New commenter

    Good topic for discussion! In my department there is a mixture, with i being of the 'younger generation' working with those who are much older. What i have found, and this might just be the school that i am in, is that the older memebr of staff (who has been there since the 80's) is very set in their ways. In regards to teaching, it is very command led, i.e skills drills then a game. Focus in the lessons is on who can be the best (can throw the furthest, jump the highest, best at throwing and catching... you get my drift) and while yes i think there should be an element of this is lessons. I feel that there is so much more to PE than this, and apply this in my lessons, encouraging leadership, coaching roles, and i am just pleased when that pupils put their maximum effort in, and the aspects of SEAL & PELTS is met. I see many confilcts happening in my department, and it is between the older and younger PE teachers. It is mainly because a younger member of staff will suggest a new concept/idea which will be beaten down or frowned upon by the older. Some people just don't like change.
    Saying all this in my previous school there were those of the older generation who were a delight and, they had ideas, constanlty revewing practice, and CPD. Which i loved and i was very receptive to.
    So i think it just depends, on things like personality, how long they have worked at a particular school.
  3. Maybe it has something to do with the training that many PE students go through today (PGCE route mainly).
    Whereas a lot of older teachers would have gone through a BEd (which is still probably better IMO), most students today will hve had lelvels, learning journeys, SEAL drummed into them, therefore thinking it to be gospel. Perhaps many older teachers are cynical as things like this are just another initiative that gets in the way of teaching.
    When i trained Levels had not been introduced, but aftert ravelling etc, i took a full time job and was confronted with them.......!! I couldnt believe what a load of nonsense....but try telling that to an NQT who sees them as really important.
  4. gogojonny

    gogojonny New commenter

    I don't get this whole 'guided discovery' rubbish.
    Pupils arrive to your lesson. You tell them how to throw a javelin / shot put. You put in safety measures - THROW, WAIT, COLLECT. Then repeat and they progress to runs ups etc.
    Are there seriously some teachers out there who let them throw it how they want and then bring the class in to discuss the best technique to throw it?
  5. gogojonny

    gogojonny New commenter

    Leadership and coaching roles should come into team / club practice.
    We waste so mouch PE time with fancy leadership and coaching gimmicks.
    Older staff just get on with it and activity time in my experience of older staff is greater.
    The state sector want boxes ticking hence why you get all these fancy schemes. But ultimately any lesson should be on what the individual pupil can achieve for themselves - they could have the longest throw in an event or just beat their personal best.
  6. Gogojohnny, I never mentioned 'guided discovery'!!
  7. I don't get this whole 'guided discovery' rubbish.

    Pupils arrive to your lesson. You tell them how to throw a javelin / shot put. You put in safety measures - THROW, WAIT, COLLECT. Then repeat and they progress to runs ups etc.

    Are there seriously some teachers out there who let them throw it how they want and then bring the class in to discuss the best technique to throw it?

    Clearly, there is a time and place for it and throws in athletics is not one of them- nor would any right minded observer expect it to be.!

    But give them the task of how many different ways they can move across the floor in a gym lesson is a whole different situation.

    There is good from old and new, problems arise when people from both generation refuse to learn from each other!
  8. gogojonny

    gogojonny New commenter

    Sorry! I clicked on reply then quote, was going to back you up then started thinking about 'guided discovery' and how daft it was!
    Am I old school? Is there a club I can join? Do they do jackets? Do the new school club have hoodies?
  9. gogojonny

    gogojonny New commenter

    Take my primary school pupils - by the time they get to me in kit I have about 25 minutes with them.
    Fresh out of Uni I would follow the plans and allow them to explore 'how many different ways they can move'. Then when it came to asking them to demonstrate I would have 30 hands shoot up and there would be 2 or 3 demonstrations. We would talk about the movements and then I would tell them how to move (the focus for the lesson). After 2 minutes of taking part in the actual lesson it would be time to pack up and get changed.
    We confuse kids too much - quite simply you sit them down, tell them what you want them to do, and then let them do it.
    This is a problem we are seeing in Maths - given children numbers and letting them play and explore them to find out how to do sums. Kids are confused and just want to be told how to do it. In Maths this has seen the decline of traditional vertical addition / subtraction.
  10. Agree totally Gogojohnny, I direct kids to do the correct skills either by demo by me or a gifted pupil(especially gymnastics). They then practice that skill and learn how to do it properly, instructed by me. If the pupils do not know the skill, they cannot discover it by accident. Do we think Lionel Messi discovered how to play Football by accident, and Michael Jordan shoot a basketball by accident!!! Direct coaching froma good teacher works.
  11. I agree completely that you need direct coaching and about 85% of what I teach is, but often, the weaker kids will gain in confidence if given some space to play with something they are unfamiliar with. If it was still the case that kids played at mucked around on the weekends and after school, then I don't think it would be nearly as necessary.

    Some kids need to given opportunities to play with new skills and we can give them that in the correct environment.

    Isn't this an arguement about how old or new school one is? I think both 'schools' have brilliant methods and ideas and it is up to a good teacher to pick and choose the methods appropriate for the school, kids and activity that they are teaching. And not just be set that their way is the best way.
  12. gogojonny

    gogojonny New commenter

    During rugby I can have up to 8 groups all by myself in 8 separate sections of the yard. They are all given the exact same brief - how to catch and pass a rugby ball. I can differentiate it so that the less able pupils are in one group, but they are told the exact same as the more able group. I may be able to progress the more able group quicker, but the less able group always have a focus and if anyone asks them what they are doing, they are able to state the aim of the drill.
    For rugby I will do the same passing and catching drill every week. At the end of 6 weeks the less able will be able to catch, the more able might be catching from longer distances. But every pupil will know the basics of catching a rugby ball (ALL, MOST, SOME principle).

  13. bigfatgit

    bigfatgit Occasional commenter

    My tuppence worth on "guided learning" - what a pile of @#$%
    We do this modern thing called "tea-ching" (might be imported from China.) It's quite amazing really. The children (customers?) turn up on time, get changed, we tell them what to do, they do it and learn far more (and in my opinion, have more fun and activity) than the old stuff you guys seem to do.
    I'm not sure if it's going to catch on
  14. stopwatch

    stopwatch Established commenter

    I don't need to come to the Uk to experience/become aware of these things, I am already.
    Making a child practice one skill for 6 weeks is not good practice, will not motivate them, and will turn them off whichever activity/sport they are doing, if not PE altogether.
  15. gogojonny

    gogojonny New commenter

    Lets take the example of someone who can't throw a ball.
    I am currently teaching my pupils to bowl over arm.
    Should I be teaching this pupil how to bowl overarm when they can't even throw the ball?
    This pupil may spend 6 weeks learning how to throw a ball, and another pupil will spend 6 weeks learning how to bowl over arm. But every pupil will have achieved something.
    This is the basis of every bit of research on dyspraxia and other movement problems - the pupils must practice constantly the same skill again and again, for sometimes up to a year. The teacher motivates them and can change the activity slightly to keep them interested, but ultimately the skill is the same. They cannot coordinate the left and right side of their brains together and until they learn to do so it is no use trying to teach them to bowl.
  16. stopwatch

    stopwatch Established commenter

    But we weren't talking about dispraxics were we? We were talking about teaching methods in general.
    Please point me to the 'research' which says, or even indicates that you would teach one simple skill like forward roll or overarm throwing for a period of 6 weeks.
    You seem to be meandering.
    To go back to the original comments on gymnastics, you wouldn't teach a group forward rolls for a full lesson or probably even teach it as a formal skill to a whole class in the way you describe.
    One of the ideas behind Educational Gymnastics is basically that children follow a general theme such as rolling or travelling and use ways which are appropriate to their ability. That way children are able to develop their skills and imagination rather than being stuck at a level which they are not going to achieve - even in 6 weeks.
    A good teacher of gymnastics would ensure that children challenge themselves by trying to progress from their current level.
  17. Stopwatch, why on earth have you brought abuse into this discussion? Get a grip matey.
    I also learned Ed Gym in the 70's/80's and acknowledge that you can 'discover' through that medium. However, a good teacher will still direct once the pupil has 'discovered' a movement that they can do eg "Well done, now that you can do that, why don't you try this?"
  18. gogojonny

    gogojonny New commenter

    We're talking about the best way to teach skills to pupils. Many pupils these days have dyspraxia and will take much much longer to learn new skills.
    The research is immense - Portwood is one of the main leaders, I would also suggest reading the work of Hazel Carr, a teaching assistant who has set up a motor skills club for children with dyspraxia. They must learn the skills again and again. This has to be at least weekly and for greater impact it has been shown that having other non-dyspraxic children present has a positive impact.
    What you've just said highlights the poort standards in children today.
    'I would like you to start your routine with a headstand. Hang on children in group number 1, you tried that last week for 10 mins and can't do it, so you start from a standing start instead.'
    How do we get children to improve if they are not allowed to practice and master skills?
    If they practice the headstand and still can't do it before the performance, then use your judgement for a standing start, but always give them the chance to practice it.
    When you let children 'choose' their own movements then they choose the ones they already know. We are teachers and should be teaching them new movement, they are pupils and need to learn them.
    Guess that makes me the youngest member of the old school club.
  19. gogojonny

    gogojonny New commenter

    I don't know the exact name but some bloke a couple of years ago made a mission of timing the activity time in school gymnastics lessons - average of 8 minutes. A common technique, on my very first gym lesson on teaching practice the teacher had a stopwatch to illustrate the point of me talking too much and the kids not getting enough time.
    Most primary schools follow Val Sabin for gymnastics - a scheme which requires floorwork and apparatus work every lesson. If followed exactly so much time is spent talking, moving mats, setting out apparatus.
    Also on Teachers TV there is a gym lesson example of good practice. The kids are sat down half the time watching one other pupil perform. I always split the class in half for the last 5 minutes - one half performs, the other gives me quick feedback, and then they swap over.
    Yes it does have children with dyspraxia in it. They will have achieved or be working towards one outcome. Other children will have achieved more than one outcome.
    At least we agree on something!

    I do think that many old school PE staff don't understand dyspraxia and get frustrated when kids can't do stuff. However it is some of these new school ideas that are causing this dyspraxia in the first place. There was a time and a place when PE in primary schools was regular and kids were active. The kids may have at times hated PE but they grew up without coordination / movement difficulties.
  20. I don't understand it. And I get frustrated, too. Simple catching skills one on one with a dys. kid takes up a lot more time than sending super star off to throw a ball against the wall and see how far he can get from the wall before it bounces.
    But very rewarding when the the less able one manages a few catches in a row.

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