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Off-rolling does far more good than harm.

Discussion in 'Education news' started by David Getling, Nov 9, 2017.

  1. brighton56

    brighton56 Occasional commenter

    Not that I agree with everything that has been said in this forum, I do sometimes think that inclusion has had an adverse affect for pupils learning. Every child has a right to a good education, of course - but should that come as a detriment to others?

    If I were to add up the hours I spend directly with my profoundly SEN children in lessons to ensure they can access the learning compared to the time spent with the rest of the class then it doesn't feel fair.

    If I were to add up the hours spent dealing with poor instances of behaviour which should be directed to teaching then it doesn't seem fair.

    If I were to add up the hours spent with severe SEN children who sometimes bite, kick out, scream and trash the classroom. Is that fair on the other children?

    We always jump on board the disability and equalities act (rightly so) but are we giving our quiet, well-behaved average ability children the time they deserve in the classroom? These children don't always have the family support.

    State schools today focuses mainly on SEN, free school meals, behavioural and gifted and talented. If you don't fall into these categories you won't get as much support.

    There are no real answers to my post. There is no easy change and no time/money to support all groups equally. I believe, and am happy for, SEN and behavioural problem children to remain in mainstream - they deserve to be. I just struggle to understand inclusion when it can sometimes excludes others when not managed effectively.
  2. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Star commenter

    I think sometimes it adversely affects the children it's meant to be helping as well. I've known a few children who in other times might have gone to "special schools" but who are, under the inclusion policy, instead placed in mainstream. They have no friends, are isolated and often victims of the jokes and name-calling of others. Without exception they stick like limpets whenever possible to their assigned TA as being their only 'friend'.
    Without doubt they would have more friends and feel more 'included' in a special unit designed to meet the needs of children like them

    Is inclusion helping them? No, it's doing exactly the opposite.
    Is inclusion helping to cut costs? You betcha.
    Norsemaid and saluki like this.
  3. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    The "UK" schools you're suggesting are too liberal and where the kids don't cooperate?
  4. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    Does it?
    I think it might be useful to know for sure before suggesting that pupils with additional needs are treated better than others - an assertion I'm sure many parents of those children would be stunned to see!
  5. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    you can hate me all you like, but I am utterly sick of children being plonked down into totally inappropriate classrooms where the extent of the time and resources wasted on them impacts on every other child in there.
    saluki likes this.
  6. brighton56

    brighton56 Occasional commenter

    In my classroom experience, yes. Because I really want to help them.
  7. David Getling

    David Getling Lead commenter

    Sparkle, I don't think you realise just how true what you've just said is. While the environment in Kiwi schools is vastly better than in UK ones, they insist on trying to keep all kids in mainstream schools. I particularly remember two girls with learning difficulties, and they were both nice kids. But they couldn't make any friends at school. One of them I observed in my class. The other one used to be brought along to the tennis club by her mother, where everyone (myself included) used to play her at tennis and was friendly. But I do recall her mother saying how she had had no friends at school.

    Putting certain kids in mainstream schools, because of political convictions, isn't just highly counter productive, it's extremely cruel.
  8. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Lead commenter

    Can you define "correctional facilities", they sound like a prisons.

    Your ideas remind me of the "Short sharp shock" and "back to basics" policies of the past, I think history does not look kindly on them.

    So am I and I have sympathy with the idea of removing the disruptive element to an alternative provision. But I cannot see anyway that your drill sergeant type regime would work in UK schools today, in fact I would argue it would almost certainly be counter productive.

    It appears that you have not taught in the UK nor have you taught at any school other than on a short term contract and or supply. Perhaps your views would be different if you had taught in the UK. I believe firmly that the problems we see in the classroom regarding poor attitude to learning and poor behaviour are a societal problem and schools are being asked to solve it without have the means to do it.
    vinnie24 likes this.
  9. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    actually, I don't think this is necessarily true. A lot of children require constant one-2-one in mainstream, which they would not have in a classroom set up for children with similar disabilities. I've worked in a special school where children who would get constant one-2-one in mainstream are in class of 6-8 children with one teacher and one TA in a special school, where resources are shared rather than having to be bought in for a specific child, where a speech therapist, for example, can see 12 separate children in a day, rather than travelling round the countryside visiting three 10 miles part from each other, where a specially adapted minibus with one driver and one escort can bring 8 children in to school instead of one etc etc etc.

    where children who make constant involuntary noises are only heard by each other, rather than distracting 29 children each, where individual rooms don't have to keep being found to isolate such children from the classes they cannot access, which in mainstream frequently means the loss of private reading areas, seminar rooms, study places, homework rooms, games rooms, calm-down rooms, isolation rooms for general use, etc. I loathe "inclusion" it isn't inclusive, its a nightmare.And this is before I even take into account the time and resources I am expected to take to provide a "fully differentiated curriculum", in other words not only do the full time job of a mainstream teacher, but also the full time job of a SEND school teacher on top of it.which I don't, obviously, because either one of those jobs is a 12+ hour day on its own.
  10. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    But do the other actually children in your class end up with worse outcomes as a result?
  11. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    Ah, so you started by getting rid of the poorly behaved kids and now you're getting rid of the ones with additional support needs. Are they going to correctional facilities too or are they lucky enough to go to a separate school where they only get to mix with other rejected but well-behaved kids?
  12. brighton56

    brighton56 Occasional commenter

    Outcomes that are not as good as what they would have been if more time had been spent with them.

    I'm not going to argue with you on this because I believe all children should be entitled to a good education. My only point is that some children require more teacher time than others and these tend to be SEN or behaviour. By spending more time on this, other children of course receive less teacher time. In primary, less teacher time equals less potential learning opportunities.
  13. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    I'm not arguing. I simply wondered if you had any evidence other than your own perception that the other children in the class do worse. It's not something I've looked into but I was thinking of the research about setting/mixed ability which shows a different picture to most teacher perception.
  14. bertiehamster

    bertiehamster New commenter

    This has been a perennial problem throughout my career, and needs too big an investment in staff to overcome, amongst other solutions. Shouldn't stop us looking for change though. Haven't noticed DG's response to the question about when his most recent in-class teaching experience was.
  15. saluki

    saluki Lead commenter

    YES. Yes. Yes. I have seen the evidence that low ability kids who need extra attention are overlooked because of disruptive students in the class. All of the time is spent on crowd control that should be spent on learning. Hey - and those kids with mental health problems come with a premium payment so colleges will Not exclude them. I remember one with bi-polar who spent the entire lesson goin 'eek' 'eek' 'eek' 'eek' 'eek'. Non stop for 3 hours. The other kids hated her. They hated the disruption. They hated the noise. She had no friends.
    My heart bleeds for those C/D 3/4 borderline kids who try so hard, work well, are well behaved and really want to succeed but have had their whole educational experience ruined by being placed in classes with disruptive kids who have had all of the attention. Imagine spending 10 years trying your guts out and being constantly ignored because BHL teachers are constantly pandering to the troublemakers and praising them for being wonderful.
    Flere-Imsaho. You have missed your calling in life. You should be working in FE. The students there are old enough to say to the teacher 'Do we have to have that P**** in our lesson? We can do better without him."
    Listen to the students. They know what they are talking about.
  16. Oldfashioned

    Oldfashioned Senior commenter

    We've all looked on sims to see if little Johnny Snotface is in or absent and sighed with relief when we see N next to their name for the first 3 lessons.

    This is really a whole can of worms. I do find it increasingly hard to give the slightest s h i t about the education of Johnny and his rancid friends because I waste so much time each lesson trying to get them to simply shut up. In the meantime many well behaved kids just aren't getting the attention they need.

    I don't have the answers but I do know when they aren't in the class life is better for everyone.
    dleaf12 and saluki like this.

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