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Off-rolling does far more good than harm.

Discussion in 'Education news' started by David Getling, Nov 9, 2017.

  1. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Lead commenter

    Whatever sympathy I had with your position went out of the window after that comment.

    Do you really think that some drill sergeant type by screaming at a child an inch from their face will intimidate them to cut the grass with scissors?

    Have you actually met any kids?

    Thinking about it, are you in SLT? It is the sort of ill informed comment I have seen many times for SLT drones.
    CheeseMongler and JohnJCazorla like this.
  2. lindenlea

    lindenlea Star commenter

    Awooga awooga
    (wind up alarm)
    colpee likes this.
  3. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Lead commenter

    No WE (as in teachers) don't. The behavior management system and more to the point how it is in reality applied in the school erodes the rights of those that want to a learn "to a proper education and a safe and positive environment."

    If the system is fair and fit for purpose and most importantly universally applied then it can work. In my experience teachers often feel let down by the system that is supposed to stop the disruption, unfortunately this often stops them applying the system which makes the situation worse and harder to turn around.

    (It doesn't help nowadays that you get so may complaints that you are picking on little Johnny in giving him a detention for a completely legitimate and justifiable reason, carry on and get too many complaints and you will be up for capability.)
  4. bessiesmith

    bessiesmith Occasional commenter

    To be a good teacher you have got to want the best outcomes for every child who comes into your classroom. The current system makes that impossible to achieve in many schools. Due to the funding crisis, class sizes are creeping up - I've got 34 in one class. Many schools are moving back to mixed-ability teaching as it has been suggested this will improve progress8 scores. TAs and other forms of support are being cut. So the classroom teacher is left on their own, to teach a large number of pupils with vastly different educational needs. It would be the work of superman / woman to ensure that the needs of everyone of those students are constantly being met - particularly as some of the weakest ones really need 1-1 support to do well. School leaders seem to be under the impression that these problems can be solved by more scrutiny of lessons / books etc.....
  5. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Star commenter

    How? Often this is not possible or not allowed by school policies. If you suggest it your ability as a teacher is questioned - it's YOUR fault that children disrupt your classes.
    David Getling likes this.
  6. CheeseMongler

    CheeseMongler Lead commenter

    I have never worked in a school that didn't have some form of on call system. As I said, you do need support systems to tackle disruptive behaviour, and if your school is this unsupportive, I'd get out. Students will always try to test boundaries. If they don't see that their behaviour escalates things to more serious consequences (HoY, HoD etc) then they'll continue to "take on" what they see as an individual teacher.
  7. elder_cat

    elder_cat Established commenter

    Agree that it should have been worded better. But I would like to think that any teacher subjected to an unprovoked physical attack, would be allowed to defend themself, provided the minimum necessary force were used, without being charged with assault.:eek:

    I was one of 'em (ex-Infantry Sergeant).:) The problem is that most people don't understand that military discipline is all about accepting rules and having the self control to conform to them. The shouting and posturing is all window dressing.
  8. David Getling

    David Getling Lead commenter


    Also, for particularly bad kids, the school would be residential (with them not being allowed out), and how appealing the food was (not its nutritional value),
    [This comment/section/image has been removed for breaching our Community Guidelines/Terms and conditions], and entertainment, would all be contingent on good behaviour.
    [This comment/section/image has been removed for breaching our Community Guidelines/Terms and conditions]
  9. TES_Rosaline

    TES_Rosaline Administrator Staff Member

    Interesting and surprising comments here. For anyone interested in reading this week's blog about the topic, I've included the link below.

    Critics are worried about the scale of off-rolling and its effects on the most vulnerable and marginalised young people in the education system:

    'Off-rolling is unethical, inappropriate and beyond repugnant – the consequences are devastating'

  10. CheeseMongler

    CheeseMongler Lead commenter

    Where is this money going to come from? It would be incredibly expensive to run a residential school which supervises students 24h a day. The only point of your proposal seems to be to inflict misery on young people.
    How exactly would you "force" them to behave like decent human beings, and if you are capable of this, why on Earth are you moaning about them when they disrupt your lessons... "force" them not to.
    JohnJCazorla likes this.
  11. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Lead commenter

    Now I know you are trolling.

    Either that or you are naive beyond belief.
  12. JohnJCazorla

    JohnJCazorla Star commenter

    I'm not keen on shouting "Troll" for the sake of it, especially if it's to win an argument on t'interweb.

    Like it or not, the OP has a view shared by a lot of people, including my mother who is definitely at the flog 'em and hang 'em end of the political spectrum. I would rather see the arguments and then decide where I am positioned than have the discussion drowned out with name-calling. If you want to see name-calling and even fighting go outside at break in my Secondary.
    vinnie24 likes this.
  13. armandine2

    armandine2 Established commenter

    no names and no pack drill

  14. circuskevin

    circuskevin Established commenter

    'Difficult' kids in the neighbourhood sometimes knock on my door. Unicycling is one of the skills I teach them. They have 'extra' energy which I channel into learning impressive skills.

    We once had the 'world's most talented hooligans' here in Selly Oak. They could ride a unicycle, a giraffe unicycle, a reverse steer bike and juggle. I still have the poster from when we would have 'unicycle gladiators' in the park every evening.

    What happened to them you may ask? Did they all join Zippo's circus?

    They ended up in ordinary jobs. Mechanics, builders and landscape gardeners are 3 such I know of. You'll note they are not 'sit down' type jobs.

    I was doing a circus workshop once in a local youth centre. The youth worker produced a unicycle and asked if I could ride it? I had a better idea ...

    There was some building work going on at the time. One of the builders was one of my former 'hooligans'. He was happy to show off his assorted unicycle tricks to the assembled youngsters. He was far better than me.

  15. David Getling

    David Getling Lead commenter

    Not trolling. A major reason that UK schools are so bad is that BHL teachers have let kids get away with murder for decades.
  16. colpee

    colpee Star commenter

    And as any NCO with braincells in the double figures will tell you - that sh|t doesn't work at all - and is never used by decent people - it is corporal punishment for the amusement of the punisher.
  17. colpee

    colpee Star commenter

  18. JohnJCazorla

    JohnJCazorla Star commenter

    If you define trolling as making controversial statements for the sake of stirring things up, then I'd say you're definitely there.

    However giving you the courtesy of accepting you as well meant.
    1. Education is intended to be for all
      How do you propose the rejectees are educated? I don't accept the shouty NCO etc as educating. And the only show in town (O-word) wouldn't either.
      There is a trap inherent in selecting a non-education group in that you quickly set up haves and have-nots which is a reason to have universal education in the first place.
    2. Your method of rejecting appears to be the class teacher's decision only. How would you involve the (possibly evil) SLT in making this process consistent across the school?
    3. Any plan for 2) falls foul of, "A works well in my lesson, B should be the one to go" arguments. Would you resolve this by visiting all classes and setting up a sh1t-list?
    though I disagree with you, you will be proved right. As classes get bigger and support is reduced the only way to get through the curriculum will be a load of bored-rigid, but silent, kids whilst the teacher gets their pets through the graft.

    At least the books and rooms will be tidy.
  19. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Star commenter

    I don't think it's BHLs. I think it's management who don't know how to deal with the problem (or who aren't allowed to exclude kids or who don't wnat to because it reflects badly on them) who choose to blame teachers instead.
    CheeseMongler and ridleyrumpus like this.
  20. elder_cat

    elder_cat Established commenter

    I worked in FE, rather than schools, but there it was not so much a case of management who don't know how to deal with the problem, nor one of not wanting to because it reflects badly on the institution.

    It was simple economics.

    If you excluded (or indeed 'lost' a student for any reason whatsoever) after the initial 6 week settling in period, it had a negative impact on your funding for the next year. So you inevitably ended up with a percentage of students you didn't really want to have, but were forced to keep or risk being penalised financially, with all the implications that carries with it.

    For example, we took students onto Vocational courses, who then decided to transfer to A-Level. They should have applied for A-Level in the first place, but didn't, but our department got the flack for it. We also had students who decided (for various reasons) to drop out after Year 1. Yet again it wasn't their fault, as apparently we should have been using our psychic powers to see what would happen 12 months down the road.

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