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Off-rolling does far more good than harm.

Discussion in 'Education news' started by David Getling, Nov 9, 2017.

  1. David Getling

    David Getling Lead commenter

    I wish we had an accepted acronym (perhaps BHL) for bleeding heart liberal, because yet again I need to mention one who is whining about how terrible it is to remove highly disruptive Johnny from his school. Why do these people care so little about the good kids?

    During my PGCE teaching practice I experienced the massive benefits, to good kids, of removing the bad ones. In one Y10 class I had several really bad boys (it's nearly always boys). I could see the looks of despair on the nice, decent kids each time their lesson was regularly disrupted. However, the class's normal BHL teacher felt sorry for these boys, and the fact that I displayed zero tolerance towards their behaviour, so she took them out of the class. And you wouldn't believe what a difference it made. The lessons then went really well, and the remaining students were a lot happier.

    There is no place for really disruptive kids in any school that really cares about the majority of it's students. That is, of course, unless such a school is filled with just the disruptive kids, in which case it should have a goodly number of old fashioned drill sergeants on its staff.
    saluki, BetterNow and sparkleghirl like this.
  2. JaquesJaquesLiverot

    JaquesJaquesLiverot Established commenter

    This isn't about disruptive students, though. It's also about students with medical needs that the school thinks will under-perform and adversely affect their league table position. It's also about students who move house during KS4 and can't get a school place because local schools think that they won't add value. There's a school I know, for example, that regularly tries to encourage the parents of under-performing students to home-educate them.
  3. englishtt06

    englishtt06 Occasional commenter

    @DavidGetling how did the students who were removed fare? Did the teacher who removed them work with them? What happened to them? What did they achieve? Don't leave us hanging....
  4. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Star commenter

    I agree that medical/learning needs are a different issue but 100% agree with David about the unfairness of disruptive kids ruining the education and the school life of the others. Get them out. They're willing to come back at any time provided they're provided to behave in such a way that doesn't harm the experience of the others.
    cb324, Alice K and peter12171 like this.
  5. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    There's something wrong somewhere when the only educational provision you want for some children is a drill sergeant.

    Why does one become a "bleeding heart" for sympathising with kids who struggle in a school setting and yet sympathy for kids who are comfortable with it is a given?
    colpee, chelsea2, lizziescat and 2 others like this.
  6. phlogiston

    phlogiston Star commenter

    The problem is with the "one size fits all" everyone model where has to be in a class of 30 in a mainstream school doing GCSEs with aspirational targets.

    I have been at one with David when Billy Wriggle kicked off so badly he was removed for a while. I have been frustrated when my daughter has been put next to badly behaved boys to try to moderate their behaviour.

    However, I have also felt a sense of frustration at having to do a load of difficult stuff with kids who have learning and behavioural difficulties who need socialisation.

    I am now out of the mainstream, working with kids who have fallen through the cracks. For the most part they are not the naughty boys who mask their learning and behavioural difficulties with poor behaviour. What I do now know, far more than when I was hard at it in the mainstream, the huge huge level of cognitive difficulties some youngsters have with the mainstream curriculum. Every teacher should, during their training or early years, spend a significant amount of time just working in small groups with kids with learning or behavioural difficulties. It might well change the way they do the rest of their job.
    Norsemaid, colpee, sabrinakat and 3 others like this.
  7. David Getling

    David Getling Lead commenter

    English, yes, the BHL teacher that removed them worked with them. As to how they did, all I can recall is that after my stint at the school was over I heard that one of the boys in question physically attacked a deputy head. In fact, it's one of the reasons they were removed from my class. Because when the BHL told me that they might turn nasty I left her in absolutely no doubt that I wouldn't hesitate to defend myself. However, I only care about students who want to learn. I really don't lose any sleep wondering about the fate of the disruptive ones who have been kicked out.

    Flere, did I say just drill sergeants? The idea is that these young delinquents will very quickly come to learn that paying respect and attention to their teachers is infinitely more preferable to spending time with a no-nonsense NCO.
  8. CheeseMongler

    CheeseMongler Lead commenter

    I dislike the way the OP has classed students as the disruptive kids or the decent kids as if these are fixed labels. Some of the most rewarding students I have taught were little ***** at times and likewise, the angels of year 7 can morph into the devil when puberty hits. If you accept this premise and agree that "disruptiveness" is not fixed, then surely it is part of our role to educate and help students with this aspect of their lives? Or is that too "BHL"?
    Can you please confirm what you mean with the thread title too; did you put "off-rolling" with the same meaning as "fixed term exclusion" or do you think the highly disruptive little Johnny should be removed from all school rolls?
    lizziescat and JohnJCazorla like this.
  9. JohnJCazorla

    JohnJCazorla Star commenter

    I only partially agree with David. I'm with him to the extent that classes/schools do better with the disruptive ones out of it.

    However, like all good ideas, there's great potential for Academies to abuse it. I don't know why not now but there was a big fuss about 10 years ago for the habit of confusing low-achieving with disruptive and then kicking out the ones that would drag down the school Performance tables. Even better the excluded ones would end up somewhere nearby and so drag down neighbouring schools slighty.
    Alice K and peter12171 like this.
  10. lizziescat

    lizziescat Star commenter

    I dislike the way the OP has classed those who have to deal with the complexities of poor behaviour, within a constrained and resource deficient system ,by trying to insult them.
    colpee, sabrinakat and chelsea2 like this.
  11. lizziescat

    lizziescat Star commenter

    This reads as if you threatened to assault a pupil in your care. I'm sure you didn't mean that otherwise (I would hope) you would have been the one removed from the classroom.
    Flere-Imsaho likes this.
  12. galerider123

    galerider123 Lead commenter

    That is really quite shocking.
  13. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    We should be thinking about how well pupils do, not how well schools do.

    All pupils.
    colpee and galerider123 like this.
  14. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    I think it's very clear what your idea is but just in case I'm being uncharitable, perhaps you could explain what the no nonsense NCOs would be doing to quickly teach pupils to pay respect and attention?
  15. David Getling

    David Getling Lead commenter

    Happy to oblige. They would be made to do things that they hated and really did regard as a waste of their time: since they were happy to waste other people's time.Cutting the grass with scissors, drill (of course), and running round the parade ground with a pack on their back, come to mind.
  16. CheeseMongler

    CheeseMongler Lead commenter

    Why would they? What's stopping them telling the NCO to do one? Physical intimidation?
    I know this is a limited quote but it seems to be your attitude throughout the thread. That's fine from the perspective of a parent as phlogiston describes. However, if you are a teacher, you have a responsibility to EVERY student in your care. You cannot exclude some because you don't like them. I'll happily accept a label of BHL of you accept you are a NMP (not my problem).
  17. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    You need to upskill.

    We can't only teach children who shut up and look at us without blinking.
    TCSC47 and Flere-Imsaho like this.
  18. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    Ex-military types make awful teachers. They can't cope with people not following orders. Seen it a few times now.
    TCSC47 and lizziescat like this.
  19. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Star commenter

    This is true but the current system means that we allow our responsibility to some children to erode the rights of others to a proper education and a safe and postive environment.
    David Getling and Alice K like this.
  20. CheeseMongler

    CheeseMongler Lead commenter

    I am not advocating allowing students to disrupt others whenever they feel like, I will have students removed if they are disruptive. However, I still have a responsibility to help them develop and so I will use appropriate support (form tutor, HoD, HoY etc) to try help them. It's time consuming and schools don't always have the appropriate support; I can empathise with the difficulties that disruptive students cause. I will not turn my back on them though.
    phlogiston likes this.

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