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NQT planning Numeracy & Literacy Places with naughty children...HELP!

Discussion in 'Primary' started by MrBarnes, Aug 1, 2011.

  1. Hi there,
    I am a NQT who's currently in the process of planning Numeracy places. I have 9 tables with nine different ability levels, which has worked out very nicely for me! However, surprise surprise the lowest ability also has a positive correlation with my naughtiest children who I am hesitant to seat together.
    Does anyone have any advice as to how I can do this? Or any alternatives? And the table arrangement is part of the Kagan system in place at school.
    Thanks,

    Joe
     
  2. Hi there,
    I am a NQT who's currently in the process of planning Numeracy places. I have 9 tables with nine different ability levels, which has worked out very nicely for me! However, surprise surprise the lowest ability also has a positive correlation with my naughtiest children who I am hesitant to seat together.
    Does anyone have any advice as to how I can do this? Or any alternatives? And the table arrangement is part of the Kagan system in place at school.
    Thanks,

    Joe
     
  3. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    How many children doyou have in the class if you have NINE ability groups?
     
  4. Sorry for that small oversight! There are 33 pupils in my class.

    Joe
     
  5. Lara mfl 05

    Lara mfl 05 Star commenter

    On the other hand if you have them atogether sat <u>very</u> near you they may be easier to monitor & keep on task.
     
  6. One of these particular children can become very violent and needs to be physically restrained so they need to be near the door for a swift exit with his LSA...which is at the opposite end of my classroom. I am hoping because these boys are sat with two LSAs for boys in the same group, they may be influenced to behave?
     
  7. They will be influenced to behave if you set the boundaries and expectations. They will be influenced to behave if you never make false promises of reward or sanction and always stick to your word. Personally I would not have a child removed from a room when he becomes violent. This is just teaching him that if he no longer wants to be in the situation he can kick off and get out. Time out in the classroom would be more effective.
     
  8. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    So you have 33 children 9 ability groups 3 adults?
    I'm not familiar with the Kagan method but do you really need 9 different groups?
    Do the children have statements for behaviour and therefor 1-1 support?
     
  9. It appears to be another one of those 'things we all already do in the classroom giftwrapped in a fancy name to try and sound like something new'.
    I too am a bit baffled by the nine ability groups! You aren't seriously going to differentiate 9 different ways?
     
  10. Sillow

    Sillow Senior commenter

    I haven't heard of the Kagan method at all. It sounds suspiciously like creating more work for teachers... Nine groups? I wouldn't have physical room to sort nine different tables, let alone finding differentiated work for nine different groups and being able to work with all groups during the week.
    And, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't having LSAs working with your bottom group all the time be considered bad practise? Perhaps it would benefit some of those children to sometimes work with other ability groups (next one up, perhaps), when you aren't working with the bottom group yourself. Then the LSAs/TAs can work with other children. (Bit more difficult if there's 1:1 support, of course. But both those particular children and the others in the class will benefit from having a range of adult input throughout the week.)
     
  11. The Kagan stuff is a load of rubbish wrapped up in a fancy expensive package with lots of add on things that you have to pay for. All the "structures" are either common sense or are well tried and tested methods with a fancy name. I never cease to be amazed at some schools, usually pushed into it by some zealous teacher, who will buy into such rubbish. One of those things that quietly gets put on the back burner by anyone with any common sense or once the zealot moves on to a new gimmick.

     
  12. Hi,

    We will be having our training in Septebmer but the SLT want tables of four, it is a tight squeeze. It will be very new for me as I am used to less groups! There are two LSAs to have 1:1 support with two boys who also have very low levels. It's not my choice to place the LSAs with them, that's their role in the classroom. Adult input is going to be a tricky one as a lot of TAs were made redundant last year. With regard to the ability groups I have pupils ranging from 1c - 4b which is what I refer to when I say nine different abilities.
    Anyway, refering to my original question, how can I work this? With badly behaved pupils who are, for example all on a 2b so if I follow the numeracy/literacy places method, will be sat together. Any alternatives?
     
  13. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    I don't think the OP as an NQT in a school that follows Kagan has the luxery of a back burner.
    OP I would carefully rethink how many groups you really need. I would also look at the effective use of the LSA (ie not always working with the same children) and until you are actually teaching these children drop the "naughty" label. Set rules, expectations and consequences and stick to them. Obviously don't know the children but I would be reluctant to automatically have them removed by the LSA.
     
  14. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Personally I don't sit children in ability groups and because you have 9 tables doesn't automatically mean you have 9 groups. 2 or more tables can work togetheror in a mixed ability table each child could have a different task so 4 lots of differentiation not 9.
     
  15. Thanks for that. I have to have the nine different groups, that's not my choice to make unfortunately. The LSA are contracted to the individual children, for 1:1 support. It's not a case of me always placing them with the same children, it's what's in their job description. I worked with the class for a month before the end of term to get to know the class. This particular boy was suspended for punching the deputy head in the face. I am going to emphasise the fresh start and the clear expectations of behaviour and work as I would do with any class I just want to be able to anticipate trouble i.e. by placing these boys together, and reduce the chance for that, if I can help it.
     
  16. The way it has worked out is roughly 3 sub-levels per every 3 tables. So I am going to differentiate by 4 (the last one accounting for the boys with SEN needs with the LSAs).

    Sound good?
     
  17. monkeychops

    monkeychops New commenter

    We use Kagan at our school. Not necessarily my choice but it is what the school has chosen!
    Should the children not be in mixed ability groups for this to work? We split the class into 4 levels of ability then put one child of each ability on each table. This would spread the children with behaviour problems across the tables and allow you to sit someone sensible next to them
    I agree with others though that you should make sure you have clear expectations of behaviour and stick to them, regardless of where they are sat in the room.
     
  18. Finally! I was beginning to think my school was the only one on this bandwagon! Like I said, we haven't had the training yet so I know very little of the methodology. We have our training in September. It makes me relax with the advice you have given, monkeychops. I have placed the overspill onto the following table, so a table of 3bs will have both a 3c and a 3a on it. I hope this works. Until then I will just have to wait for my training in september. Given the negativity surrounding the method I am not feeling very positive now!

    I will of course be ensuring clear expectations of behaviour, rewards and sanctions. That is a given.
     
  19. minnieminx

    minnieminx New commenter

    I thought Kagan meant mixed ability tables as well. So one from each level of group on each table. Check with your school before you sort the seating, you don't want to waste your time.

    However you should definitely group them with regard to ability not behaviour. If you put a child who finds lessons tricky on a table where the work is too hard or two easy then you definitely are asking for trouble. Group them as you have to or by ability as you choose and then deal with the behaviour using the school system.
     
  20. Thanks for everyone's help. I really do value your input. I can safely say everyone who is at a level 2/3/4 is at a table for their level. When we start to deleve into sub-levels it does become a bit more confusing. I am looking forward to this Kagan training.


    Thanks everyone,

    Joe
     

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