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Notre Dame is on fire !

Discussion in 'Personal' started by peakster, Apr 15, 2019.

  1. cissy3

    cissy3 Star commenter

    It appears that the main structure and bell towers have survived.

    ''As it burned into the evening, firefighters battled to prevent one of the main bell towers from collapsing. One firefighter was seriously injured - the only reported casualty.

    “We now believe that the two towers of Notre-Dame have been saved,” Paris fire chief Jean-Claude Gallet told reporters at the scene. “We now consider that the main structure of Notre-Dame has been saved and preserved.”''

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...itectural-gem-at-heart-of-paris-idUSKCN1RR1UO
     
    nomad likes this.
  2. Duke of York

    Duke of York Star commenter

    I'm unsure what you mean by that. I'm not in the habit of remarking unsympathetically about the loss of a national treasure. I was responding to @racroesus comment about how the Balamena Guardian would report it.

    On a scale of one to ten though, how would you compare this fire as a disaster to that of Grenfell Tower?

    It will be undoubtedly be restored, just as the Glasgow School of Art was and will be again, following last year's fire, but in this instance, it will be interesting to see who caughs up the money for it.

    Notre Dame is owned by the French State, but the Catholic Church is the designated beneficiary and does not receive any subsidies from the French State for its mainenance.
    At the risk of further cricitism on this matter, am I able to ask whether his physical impediment will hamper his ability to spin in his grave at this news?
     
    racroesus likes this.
  3. nizebaby

    nizebaby Star commenter

    Why should I? The two events are not related. Perhaps you are suffering from what EM Forster called "the British bank balance view of emotions" and can't conceive of the idea that feeling sadness, compassion or love is not a finite, measurable thing.
     
  4. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    The name of the company doing the renovations was Grayling Construction
     
  5. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    Admission to Notre Dame has always been free.
     
    nomad and Lara mfl 05 like this.
  6. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    This is totally meaningless. one a scale of one to ten, how would you compare Grenfell Tower fire as a disaster to the battle of Stalingrad? Why would you compare these things at all?
     
  7. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    You do wonder what the inside looks like. It could be closed for years.

    Comparing Grenfell with this fire is crass - nobody died yesterday.
     
  8. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Lead commenter

    There are pictures already showing that the interior has survived quite well.
    upload_2019-4-16_8-7-34.png
     
  9. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    That picture is weirdly beautiful
     
    les25paul, agathamorse, nomad and 2 others like this.
  10. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    Some good news at least
     
  11. fraisier

    fraisier Occasional commenter

    You’re right, the Catholic church receives nothing from the state but the maintenance of N-D and other cathedrals & churches built pre-1905 are the sole responsibility of the State I believe.

    About 95% of what the Catholic Church receives in France (€256 million in 2016) comes from will donations and ordinary donations, given by just over 1 million people or households (part of the remaining 5% coming from “quêtes” – the collections after masses – and the “offrandes de messe” – offerings, gifts, contributions given for special or one-off masses, baptism masses etc.). Most of that money goes towards paying priests and other ecclesiastical & admin personnel, towards bills (heating, electricity, insurance policies etc.) and repairs, maintenance and renovation work as well as the construction of new churches.

    There is a very important marker date to bear in mind whenever we talk about religion in France: 1905, the separation of State and Church (I wrote about it here). Therefore, cathedrals and churches built before 1905 belong to "collectivités locales" (local authorities, roughly to the State) who are financially responsible for their upkeep and, conversely, local dioceses own religious buildings built post 1905 (likewise, they fork out for any renovation or maintenance work).

    That said, in this case, it's largely irrelevant I guess as donations will be substantial so the State will probably pay nothing or very little. Already, billionaire François-Henri Pinault has pledged to give €100 million to help rebuild N-D. A fundraising campaign is to be launched too.

    It’d be great if the Pinault family (who own the Kering Group) were so generous with the Italian, French and UK Inland Revenues: they’ve managed to dodge paying €2.5 billion since 2002, according to the investigative site Mediapart. The Italian IR has been the most affected and they are after them big time, to the tune of €1.4 billion and possibly the French one soon (“redressement fiscal” as they call it in France, tax penalty). Pinault’s forthcoming €100 million donation might not be that disinterested after all. No doubt the French IR would be better disposed to the Pinaults and dole out a kinder tax fine should they stump up such a large amount for the renovation.

    Le groupe français de luxe Kering aurait soustrait depuis 2002 environ 2,5 milliards d'euros d’impôts, « pour l’essentiel au préjudice du fisc italien », mais aussi de la France et du Royaume-Uni.

    ...

    Le gigantesque redressement fiscal qui menace Kering en Italie
     
    nomad likes this.
  12. fraisier

    fraisier Occasional commenter

    And Bernard Arnault, France’s richest man, has pledged to double Pinault’s €100 million contribution to the renovation:

    Le groupe LVMH, numéro un mondial du luxe, et la famille Arnault ont à leur tour annoncé un "don" de 200 millions d'euros pour la réfection de la cathédrale.

    France's richest man Bernard Arnault pledges €200MILLION to repair Notre Dame - doubling the €100million donated by Salma Hayek's billionaire husband

    I wonder if Arnault, too, feels a “redressement fiscal” coming in France or some sort of fiscal bother… (I am so cynical). He was fiscally done in Belgium last year and had to pay a tax fine of €1 billion.
     
  13. peter12171

    peter12171 Star commenter

    Maybe those pledging such amounts are thinking of Jesus’s words about it being easier for a camel to go through he eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
     
    Lara mfl 05 likes this.
  14. Aquamarina1234

    Aquamarina1234 Star commenter

    I sit corrected!
    Imagine having two hundred million euros to give away. Perhaps he'll start charging entry to recoup his investment...
     
  15. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    Hmm.

    Radio 4 earlier.

    Someone saying that the devastation wrought by climate change was infinitely more destructive and harmful than the fire at ND. They were quickly closed down.

    I think they're right.

    Pity we couldn't expend quite so much energy for bemoaning the state of our planet and working out how to remedy it.
     
  16. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    Of course a major problem is going to be that Notre Dame is primarily constructed of Limestone (Calcium Carbonate). When a Limestone building burns the Limestone starts to thermally decompose and what you get is Calcium Oxide. This material is brittle so any of the building that has been fire damaged will have to e very carefully checked out.
     
    monicabilongame likes this.
  17. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Lead commenter

    Ironically, you wouldn't have mentioned it had they given nothing.
     
  18. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    I haven't heard anything yet about the fate of the organs in Notre Dame. The Grande Orgue is a priceless instrument built by Cavaillé-Coll (the greatest of all French organ builders) in 1864, and fully restored in the 1990s. It is at the west end, so may not have suffered much damage but, on the other hand, organs are made of wood with pipes made from wood and from an alloy of lead and tin with a low melting point, so there is a great risk from fire.

    I suspect the chancel organ has had it, as it was positioned close to the place where the spire collapsed into the interior. It's a much more modest instrument compared to the five-manual Cavaillé-Coll, with its 8000+ pipes. I have a feeling there is a third organ, possibly in the choir (in which case it will probably have been lost).
     
  19. fraisier

    fraisier Occasional commenter

    That's not the issue here. It really is the least French multi-billionaires can do (to give sthg back) given the generous tax advantages and all manners of tax facilities that they get, unlike us mere mortals who have to pay full whack. In my posts and the links I've provided, it’s not even legal or borderline legal tax breaks ("tax optimisation") that are mentioned but downright illegal fiscal activity: they've broken the fiscal legislation in Belgium, France, Italy and the UK to the tune of billions of £.

    Apparently, it's been badly damaged but not destroyed so hopefully will be repairable, early days though to provide a full prognosis of course.

    Notre-Dame de Paris: endommagé, le grand orgue de la cathédrale échappe à la destruction

    “A miracle” one of the main ND organists (Vincent Dubois) has said.
     
    Lara mfl 05 likes this.
  20. fraisier

    fraisier Occasional commenter

    florian gassmann likes this.

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