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non-words

Discussion in 'Primary' started by grape-juice, May 23, 2012.

  1. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Never mind thumbie I'm sure one day you will get your head around the difference between an excerpt and an advertisement
     
  2. That day is long past Msz. I've reached the elevated stage of realising when an excerpt is used as an advertisement. You'll get there yourself with plenty of practice. [​IMG]
     
  3. T34

    T34 Established commenter

    Writing is putting thoughts into pictures. Speaking is putting thoughts into sound.
    There is no need for there to be a relationship between the pictures and the sounds.
    The symbols do not necessarily represent sounds.
     
  4. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    I think you need to go back thumbie as unfortunately you've failed to grasp the basics ... I suggest a dictionary to begin with and to try not to rely on your own definition as it's obviously not the conventional meaning
     
  5. You don't sense even a hint of manipulation? You don't think that the designers of this web page want you to go and buy something at Sopris West website? If not, no it isn't an advertisement. So for you, not. For me, it is. There, will that do? [​IMG]I,m sure we agree on definitions of advertisements and excerpts. One does not preclude the other, does it?
     
  6. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    what!
     
  7. T34

    T34 Established commenter

    I did say necessarily.
    Ancient Egyptian stuff and Babylonian pictures, which they used for writing, didn't represent sounds. They wenr straight from a thought to a picture and vice-versa.
    At some point in time, someone must have had the bright idea of having some sort of correspondence between the pictures and the sound - i.e the pictures could map to bits of the sound. From then on, it's easy to see how we could come to think that text represents sounds which represent thoughts, rather than text representing thoughts directly.
     
  8. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Some written languages use characters ... in Chinese the characters convey meaning rather than sounds, Japanese is slightly different as the characters are supplimented by kana which represent syllables, but we use an alphabetic system where letters or combination of letters represent speech sounds
     
  9. However, some are aware of this and try to guard against it by trying to be scrupulously fair, while others are more naive about themselves and others.

    That's certainly true. When you consider that Msz has posted almost 29,000 times, focusing mainly I assume on articles and statements that have captured her attention but which have certainly made no tangible contribution to raising literacy standards, I'm suprised that there aren't more people interested in reacting to a real situation in which one or more teachers are experimenting with a unique strategy which claims to be able to resolve childrens reading deficits in a single term - the idea of being able to challenge real teachers teaching real children in real classrooms seems to fail to excite anyone except me.
    Perhaps its time I gave up.

     
  10. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Perhaps you need to check Eddie rather than jump to wrong conclusions about my posting habits
    [​IMG]
     
  11. T34

    T34 Established commenter

    You are looking at writing as an attempt to put speech into symbols, dependent on speech, always being the poor relation.
    Would there be any writing in a soundless land?
    Is speech necessary for writing?


     
  12. Don't give up Eddie!If I was in the position to do it I would be open to having a go with your programme (can't say for sure, not having set eyes on it). In these OFSTED dominated days it is difficult to get anything different past the bosses, who want to be seen to be doing the 'right thing', which unfortunately may not always coincide with the right thing.I think your best bet would be to get an outstanding school interested, as they are less likely to be in the firing line from the powers that be. Or an independent school?
     
  13. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    I don't think he means his CD thumbie ... it was only the other day he emailed me asking if I was interested in trialling it. I have seen and tried the Y6 version of 2 years ago that he kindly sent me.
     
  14. That's a very interesting question, and if I had a deaf person handy I would get my daughter, who can sign, to ask them what happens in their minds when they communicate by sign and by writing. Any people out there who know what happens?I think the important point is that language is about communication, so there has to be a common understanding of what words 'stand for', whether they are written or spoken words. Our written language represents the sounds of the spoken language, however imperfectly, but languages don't have to work like that. Indeed we sometimes use symbol rather than written words to communicate. There still has to be a common understanding of what the symbols mean in order for communication to occur (think of signs on loo doors as an example, or road signs). Wdritten down or drawn stuff acts as a record of thoughts and as such it sometimes has to represent spoken language, because we think in words, but not always. Music represents musical thoughts, art represents visual thoughts etc.... It is also conceivable, which I think may be what you are getting at, that a person could look at a word or sentence and bypass the spoken version to land on the meaning. But I, for one, can't do it - my inner voice always says the words while I am processing the language to get at the meaning. But words can still conjure images, emotions, smells, all sorts of things, because of the meaning conveyed. I would be sad if I didn't find my inner voice saying the words, because the words and the particular waybthey express the meaning, are a big bit of the pleasure for me, especially in poetry and story.
     

  15. I think your best bet would be to get an outstanding school interested, as they are less likely to be in the firing line from the powers that be. Or an independent school?
    I had an 'outstanding' school in my 1011/12 KE2 project - every one of the nine children predicted to achieve Level 3 English, achieved Level 4. I have three independent schools involved in one or other of my current projects and another quite prominent Kent independent school which is a committed adherent. I have a couple of schools that are on notice to improve (whatever that means) There is no difficulty getting schools to participate but I have never succeeded in getting an online debate about perceptual learning going involvign schools which are actually and currently using the approach. In the most common debates about our awful literacy statistics you only get people quoting second or third hand statements by others. Since 20% of children leaving school every year for the past seventy years have left school illiterate, it is very accurate to claim that the people who are being quoted as 'proof' or 'evidence' have made no difference whatsover. Where then is the value in quoting them or their 'work'?
    The solution to our illiteracy problem will not be a 'top down' one - it will be 'bottom up' one or it will not happen at all. I would hope that people will eventually tumble to the fact that endless debates focused on statements and counter-statements by made by people who have made zero difference to the problem of illiteracy will cetainly consume time but is just not a productive way to go.
    The reality seems to be that people really prefer talking about statements made by people whose contribution to solving illiteracy can be shown to be zero. One lady posted on the Senco forum, truly incredible gains made in reading ages over one term and only one person responded - privately emailing her to ask her what tests she used to measure the children's reading-ages' the fact that the school has committed itself to a three year programme introducing the perceptual learning strategy for all children with reading deficts did not excite a single request for more details.


    I will try to get some on those already committed to the one-term li
     
  16. Yes, it would seem a number of people are using the CD. I think he wants someone to commit to giving an account of how they get on with it on here. I'm sure he will tell us what he means.
     
  17. Yes, he has!
     
  18. Msz

    Msz Established commenter


    [​IMG]
    There are phonics "worksheets" produced by the Scottish Sensory Centre at Edinburgh university
    and the National Deaf Children's Society say
    Phonics guidance: for the teaching of phonics to deaf children in mainstream schools

    Phonics is recognised as a key tool in the acquisition of literacy skills for all children and therefore should be made accessible to deaf children. This guidance is intended to help you to respond to the needs of any deaf child you may teach.
     
  19. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Perhaps you need to read his other threads where he has published feedback from schools thumbie
     
  20. I have read some quotes he has put on here, but I think he's after more of a dialogue about the programme among teachers Teaching phonics to deaf children must be a huge challenge. I guess you have to teach them to associate certain lip, tongue and throat movements with certain graphemes. If they had some hearing, and wear aids, it might be useful as an aid to literacy, and to speaking. I wonder what pressure groups for the deaf think of it. If a person is profoundly deaf I would imagine they would be better off learning to read and write whole words to correspond with signs. Any teachers of the deaf out there?
     

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