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no toilet training!!

Discussion in 'Early Years' started by hyssop_puppy, Oct 13, 2011.

  1. Is anyone else noticing an increased number of children arriving in Nursery who are not toilet trained?
    My Nursery teacher has a performance management target related to toilet training, along with other hygiene and independence issues!
    This year we seem to be wading in wee in Reception too, the worst year I can remember.
    Is it the fault of the EYFS insisting that we cannot refuse entry to Nursery when children are not toilet trained? My old Nursery teacher 12 years ago just wouldn't have them until they could use a toilet and parents accepted it. And they made sure their child could quite quickly to get them into school quicker.
    Parents think school will do it for them now.
     
  2. Glad it's not just me wading in wee this year! Yes, worst year I have known for it this year. We don't seem to make it through one session during the day without an 'accident'! I am a reception teacher in very middle class area with some very babied children!
     
  3. mystery10

    mystery10 Occasional commenter

    Who knows. You would need to find a peer reviewed research paper on this matter!!
    I do remember lots of boys wetting themselves in my reception class in the 60s. They were "toilet trained" but they weren't very good at it despite Terry nappies and early training.
     
  4. Looking on the bright side - I have one little girl whose mum had sent in with a spare set of everything, in case, who cleaned herself up and got changed, without seeking any adult support. First we knew was when she hung her bag of wet clothes on her peg!
    But then I have another girl who isn't telling us she's wet herself and then doing it again later. First we know there is when we're physically close enough to smell her - and she'll still deny it then. No puddles anywhere, it's bizarre!
     
  5. lizzii_2008

    lizzii_2008 New commenter

    I totally agree - I don't think it should be our responsibility to change children constantly through the day, it takes the focus away from the other children and this isn't fair.
    There is a child in my class who isn't toilet trained at all and I can't imagine she will be any time soon either, and we're often changing her 2 or 3 times a day and on the third time parents are called to collect. We're not talking just wet underwear either!
    I've another serial poo-er, and 3 or 4 others who have 'accidents' on a more frequent basis. One who doesn't tell anyone and waits until an adult notices!!
    In my class I wouldn't say its the ones that are treated like babies who have the issue but the ones who often receive a lack of parent involvement/interaction in all areas!
     
  6. NellyFUF

    NellyFUF Lead commenter

    I blame pull ups.
    In the good old days, you put them in pants and you stayed at home a few days to catch stuff and then you went carefully out not too far and held them over a drain if caught short..... hmm hmm but now parents don't want wee or poo on laminate floors or all over the car and they don't have time for a toilet training week so they use blasted pull ups and think that this will solve the problem. So often, children start toilet training then low and behold, a few days later they revert to pull ups and arrive in these leaving the nursery or school to fully toilet train.
    And some expect nurseries to provide changes of clothes too.
    Pull ups should be banned.
     
  7. I still have this problem in reception! I find myself saying "do you need the toilet" several times a day to the worst candidates. In my experience it does get better as time goes on but that doesnt help at this stage of the year!
    I think it is the parent's responsibility to train their child and the schools job to support this process.

    www.receptionteacher.blogspot.com
     
  8. I think pull-ups have a lot to answer for, but I blame the fact that we have to accept children who are not toilet trained.
    We can use all sorts of other unreadiness reasons for limiting a child's entry to school, for them to do shorter hours, less days and building up to the full monty,but toilet training canno tbe used as a reason for why a child isn't ready.
     
  9. mystery10

    mystery10 Occasional commenter

    I know that probably over the decades toilet training in prosperous countries has become later than it traditionally was because of the nice dry feeling stuff that disposable nappies and pull-ups are now made of. So that will probably have resulted in a larger number of untoilet trained children in nursery and possibly reception. But the cost is quite prohibitive these days.
    But if you read scientific articles about night-time and day-time dryness, and study the statistics you will see that despite the most "perfect" toilet training and great effort on parents' part there will be a certain proportion of children who will not have achieved it, or not be accident free by reception. There are various different reasons, causes, and ways of ameliorating the problem over time.
    However I would suggest that a wet pull-up is not such a big deal in a child of say four or more; it's actually much more convenient all round than wet knickers, clothes, floor, furniture etc. And a child should be perfectly capable of changing their wet pull up quite easily so long as the new ones are readily available and there is a method of disposal. A soiled one is a different matter of course.
    The harder I tried with one of my children the harder it got so it definitely is not always proportional to parents' effort, time, care. I read every silly stupid article there was on toilet training too and listened to all those annoying people who tell you that you can do it in two days, a week, or a month by such and such a method, and to parents who supposedly had their little darlings perfectly toilet trained at 14 months and the like.
    All children are different -and in some cases it might be a case of parental "laziness" of some sort, in other cases it will not be, and it certainly does not connect with the cognitive abilities of the child. I'm sure you could get all 9s at the end of EYFS and still wear a pull-up possibly inot year 1 and 2 also. Make no assumptions.
     
  10. inky

    inky Lead commenter

    Accidents are not the same as lack of toilet-training and there are a number of reasons why they happen, most of them perfectly ordinary. But for a child without 'special needs' still to be in pull-ups at the age of four smacks, to me, of parental laziness. And I don't care how busy they are. We're all busy. There's a whiff of fecklessness about it too - what a ridiculous waste of money!
    I don't think anyone has posted on here proclaiming the virtues
     
  11. inky

    inky Lead commenter

     
  12. mystery10

    mystery10 Occasional commenter

    "In the good old days, you put them in pants and you stayed at home a few
    days to catch stuff and then you went carefully out not too far and
    held them over a drain if caught short..... hmm hmm but now parents
    don't want wee or poo on laminate floors or all over the car and they
    don't have time for a toilet training week so they use blasted pull ups
    and think that this will solve the problem."
    These methods do work with the right children at the right time. But not with all, and they don't guarantee no accidents particularly when children move into a new situation like nursery or reception.
    I suppose wees and poos are an occupational hazard in the 0-7 age range. Makes mental note to steer clear of oldies and women with weak pelvic floors following childbirth too.
     
  13. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    The union guidance is that staff make heads aware they have no legal obligation to change children /toilet train and do so voluntarily so it can't be a target for PM.
     
  14. mystery10

    mystery10 Occasional commenter

    Quite right. And some parents would find it very annoying too. I didn't toilet train my second child until very late, and for various reasons I deliberately chose to do this. In the end the child did it for themselves which was the best result under the circumstances. It was no trouble for the nursery as a big pull-up did not need changing during the course of a morning (she was part-time only) and once in pants she had no accidents.
    If some nursery teacher had felt they had to badger me and her into wearing pants just for the sake of some performance target I would have been extremely cross with them and told them where to put their target!!
     
  15. I must agree it is getting worse each year, I have 7 this year who have ' accidents' most days, parents don't always provide enough clothes so they use ours which come back whenever . . . we are down to our last two pairs of pants in the box and they are boys pants ! I have one little darling who has to be changed 2 or 3 times each day, spoke to mum and she said it's just the same at home ! This week she has stepped it up to just weeing on the floor in the toilets (twice today) - mum says she does that at home too ! Is it really my job to provide clothes, clean floors etc . . . can't wait to get back into Key Stage 1 !!
     
  16. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Well of course as a parent you have the right to remove your child from such a nursery and keep your child home until they are ready.
     
  17. inky

    inky Lead commenter

    Excuse me, but the bit in italics is insulting to every teacher who gracefully accepts accidents but does not see it as part of their job to do one of a parent's most basic tasks for them while the rest of the class suffer.

    I take it your youngest child has SENs.
     
  18. mystery10

    mystery10 Occasional commenter

    No it was not insulting to a teacher. I could not believe that a teacher would have to suffer having a target relating to toilet training put in their performance target. If I had such a thing put in mine I would be perfectly happy to fail on it for various different reasons.
    No my youngest child certainly does not have S E Ns - my decision in no way related to education. She was perfectly fine in a pull-up, and for various reasons which I am not going to explain on a forum it was better that I did not pressure her to toilet train. Additionally there was no reason why any nursery including any with a policy requiring toilet training would have suffered by leaving her in a pull-up for 2.5 hours. Good pull-ups have a very high absorbency and do not smell if only wet during that period of time. Also the surface remains dry so it is no inconvenience to the child. Also they can change it themselves if they are capable of pulling their own pants on and off.

     
  19. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    I'm afraid it came across as insulting and I can't believe a parent who has taken the decision to send their child to nursery school in pull ups feels justified to criticise.
     
  20. mystery10

    mystery10 Occasional commenter

    Oh get off your silly high horse Msz. What was I criticising? I am just saying, and I will repeat it for your benefit, that a child in pull-ups for 2.5 hours, who wets the pull-up and either does not need it changing or can change it themselves is not putting anyone to any trouble. My child attended a part-time pre-school / nursery whatever you like to call it that was able to take children from 12 months up if it so chose. At exactly what age do you think a parent loses their right not to have their child put in knickers and sent to sit on a toilet?
     

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