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NCETM consultation on KS2 tests.

Discussion in 'Mathematics' started by Vince_Ulam, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

  2. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    I believe this is called a “bump”.

  3. Are you able to give some bullet point facts for people to form a basis for opinion?
  4. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

  5. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    “If you can spark a little interest by breaking down some key points then it may lead people to comment.”
    You either have sufficient interest in the government’s plans to test students at KS2, plans which will affect the way KS2 students and teachers work, that you will read the document and assess it yourself, commenting if you can muster yourself even further, or you don’t. While you’re thinking about it would you like some sugar on your porridge?

  6. It was a helpful suggestion Vince. You presumably want more contributions and I felt that beta was trying to remove the barriers which may be preventing some of us from contributing - lack of time and information. If you don't want contributions from those who fall in to that category, fair enough too.
  7. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Thanks Brookes. You make a fair point but I’m merely making people aware of the opportunity to have their say on the government’s plans for testing at KS2 and, if necessary and possible, affect that policy. I do not require people to respond at all, either via the link in post 1 or via the forms linked in post 4. If people are comfortable not reading the consultation document or responding to it then I’m comfortable that they’re reconciled to whatever may come down the track.
  8. I assume the last comment was a dig, which I shall dismiss as an inability to control your emotions and/or communicate effectively. So we will move on.
    Ok, as stated above (by someone else, other than me) when a new member posts a link and asks people to go read something there may, and i state may, be some who are not sold on the idea despite how great it could be. Therefore If you posted something along the lines of :
    • Government plan x,y and z by year 20-something
    • Teachers response so far has been a,b and c
    • What is your view?
    People may take more time to explore, hence my post trying to assist your thread which had zero response and required bumping. I may have, or form, an idea if interested in the overview but unlikely to follow a link that again goes to 4 other links.
    I shall grab my sugar, in the menatime please feel free to develop basic communication skills to deal with all. [​IMG]
  9. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    I see that facilitation fascism has taken root also here, however I’m not prepared to get involved in a pi$$ing contest over post-counts. If you can’t organise your attention or time to read the linked consultation document, Beta, then that’s just a fact and I’m not to blame. Four other links, you say? I shudder to think how you respond to books with all those pages.
    The document’s there. There are several ways to respond to the government. Read it, respond or do neither. If you don’t give a fig about the government’s plans for KS2 then I don’t give a fig about that.
    For those who aren’t especially interested in who hit the register button last but who are interested in the government’s plans for KS2 testing, here is a link to the document and the formal feedback form:
    <u><font size="2" color="#0000ff"><u><font size="2" color="#0000ff">http://www.education.gov.uk/consultations/index.cfm?action=consultationDetails&consultationId=1739&external=no&menu=1</font></u>
    </font></u><font size="2">Here also is a link to the NCETM&rsquo;s consultation page:
    <u><font size="2" color="#0000ff"><u><font size="2" color="#0000ff">https://www.ncetm.org.uk/blogs/9045</font></u>
    </font></u></font><font size="2">Enjoy your weekends, everyone.

  10. Having checked the link, there doesn't actually seem that much information there. In summary, the government says that it realises there are issues with the current KS2 tests (focusing overly on borderline students/cramming for tests at the expense of learning). It also states that the government feels that having data on how school are performing is vital to drive standards up. At least, that's my reading.

    The survey is fairly bland, 12 questions with radio buttons to respond with boxes to fill in under each one for you to elaborate if you wish. If you want them to keep your responses confidential then you have to give a reason!

    There is a problem with assessment in some primaries, they don't want to do APP (which had the potential to get them off the hook over testing) and they don't want to do KS2 tests either. That's not a criticism, just an observation, so I do hope primary colleagues have taken the opportunity to put their views strongly.

    As a secondary teacher, I've always taken primary results with a pinch of salt. I do know that many cram pupils for the exam (understandably so) and that sometimes the levels seem pretty skewed. Most secondaries do some sort of assessment when the pupil arrives (CATS/Baseline test/own test) so from the point of view of transfer to secondary, the KS2 results are only a guide and not a deal breaker.

    We had our first intake with some APP data this year and that was fairly useful in terms of avoiding the Year 7 dip. We were in the very fortunate position that several of our primaries had adopted the same way of doing APP as we have in place. Again, it's early days and we will see how things go later this year.

    I have a great deal of sympathy with the post by Betamale, a brief summary rather than just a link would have garnered more responses.
  11. I forgot to mention, is it really an NCTEM consultation? I looked like HM Gov to me. If it is NCTEM what is the reasoning behind them getting involved? I do hope NCTEM isn't going the way of the GTC and getting involved in things which are political.
  12. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    I appreciate your response, Siddons, although I&rsquo;m flagging this document more so that people may think about the matter and respond to the government, if they wish, than to have a discussion about it. You know how things are; big ugly changes happen and people whine after the fact that nobody asked their opinion.
    While the document doesn&rsquo;t give a detailed plan of those things which will happen still there are signs that the government has its heart set on particular goals. There is talk in paragraph 1.2, for example, of schools and teachers being given greater freedom to steer their own course, which seems innocuous enough until we read question 8 under the online response link. Thin end of the wedge, and all that.
    The call for consultation is being made by the government and the NCETM is putting together a consultation in response, as any interested organisation may do, as any interested individual may do.

  13. </font>I spat my organic carrott cookie over my PC whilst reading that. I am not one to 'lol' as the kids say but thats a stunner.
    I think I am aware of your reference. I dont think there is any facism, its just one 'facilli-whatever' posted a stream of garbage, I have merely tried to spark interest in your post. That is not fascism, its just a lack of respect for another person posting. You just happen to be from the same organisation. All Germans don't leave towels on sun loungers as you will be aware
    Sara has taken the time to follow the links and I have summarised the crux from that and hopefully the cause will get some attention.
    All the best with it [​IMG]
  14. Question 8

    a How effective do you think the current end of KS2 tests in mathematics are?

    b What could be changed or improved in mathematics assessment?

    c Are there aspects of mathematics that you think should be assessed by teachers? If so, which?

    Maybe this could be summarised thus: are you going to do the KS2 tests, APP or a mixture of the two?

    Hey, Betamale, maybe I could get some sort of award for my cultured take on APP?

    I appreciate you maybe didn't want a discussion vince_ulam but that's normally the score on a discussion board. I haven't always agreed with Betamale, though we have had several productive discussions, I'm sure he was genuinely trying to improve your chances of getting more people to take an interest.
  15. DM

    DM New commenter

    vince seems to be the polar opposite to becka. Despite starting this thread, he doesn't seem to want to engage with anyone about it whereas it is almost impossible to shut weebs up! His abruptness makes Beta look like a pussycat.

  16. DM

    DM New commenter

    Unless they get their funding sorted very rapidly, the only way NCETM will be going is belly up.
  17. Yes, I was just thinking the same about poor old Betamale!

    Testing has not really been much of an issue in the primaries I've worked with. They have continued with the KS2 tests and introduced APP along the lines I mentioned on another thread.

    I do wonder though what other LAs are doing, particularly ones where there was a widespread boycott of the KS2 tests.

  18. And I think combined betamale/siddons_sara/DM have done more to keep the thread 'bumped' than the original poster!
  19. Ok, after many a click and 'next' I have read through and formua;ted my response (as a teacher taking kids on in year 7 rather than a KS2 teacher)
    (please correct any points I have misunderstood)
    Gove doesnt like the idea of the current testing system, feels pupils are prepped too hard for it year 6 yet would like teachers to be more accountable for students results.
    My thoughts, again FWIW
    To control behaviour and maintain the focus of many kids much of education has turned into a watered down system where teachers are scared to put kids on single tables and teach them basic life skills such as numeracy and literacy. Lessons which are not practical, not play time and fundamental to kids success are butchered just to keep classes onside, ofsted of their back and often used to mask poor ability as a teacher. All the years spent building the blocks of basic english/maths are blurred by kids cutting things up, playing 'educational' games and doing pointless group exercises.
    This is fine for some lessons but not the academic core of a currciulum.
    I do not like the idea of prepping kids for year 6 national tests and then providing that data to secondary schools. I have level 5 kids who have zero idea of anything mathematical yet have been prepped to pass an exam and the issue of their poor understands simply sprial when they get to y7
    I believe the idea of 'level 5' is trash also as the spectrum of a solid level 5 and weak one is huge and not recognised when they make the jump. I have a set of year 7s who are level 5 and some cannot sit down and pick up a pen whilst others are very sparky and beyond their years.
    Should we have this test? no, IMO there should be an end of year test for each pupil carried outexternally rather than snowballing their 'professionally judged' progress which is often fudged for a while number of reasons.
    This will allow to track pupils INTERNATIONALLY and clearly define what makes a successful pupil at any given point rather than thinking 'oh sh*** the last 4 years of maths lessons in the sandpit means we have to slog for the back end of year 6 for our data'
    Teachers should be accountable for their kids, kids should be accountable for their learning regardless of age and the idea of 'testing is bad' should be removed as life tests people throughout and dealing with 'pressure' and being accountable for ongoing process is part of their adult years.
    In conclusion, take back control of a centralised international curriculum, throw away this wishy washy "Our pupils are not suited to that" (especially at the ge of 5-11) and return to a schooling system where fun is replaced with engagement and they enjoyment of success and leave all the messing about playing games for play time and non academic subjects in the timetable.
    Giving schools powers to change the curric will lead to the good ones being better and the weaker ones even more of a problem,
    Sit kids down, teach them skills, send them to KS3/KS4 and provide a solid background.
    Primary IBac? not sure if there is one?
  20. betamale this post is surely pure farce.
    The most obvious element of farce is that this is exactly the kind of thinking that Michael Gove and Nick Gibb are at ease with. Surely the area outside Nick Gibb's office demonstrates this.
    The second element of farce is that your stance on mathematics education is so extreme it belongs in a sitcom. Sure tables and rote learning have their place. You'll see me clearly arguing for that here:
    but to rely only on such methodologies deeply contradicts all theory of education.
    It only works in circumstances where the child is getting a great deal of their mathematics enrichment outside the classroom (usually from well educated families).

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