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NASUWT says 68,000 BME teachers needed.

Discussion in 'Education news' started by Mr_Ed, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter


    And as teachers, people should be aware that certain groups have advantages. The messages that society gives off about certain groups, role models, how groups are treated and perceived, how some groups are seen as 'other' and how that happens.

    People in education should be very aware of privileges - and the barriers people face in life, the hurdles people face in life.
    marihair likes this.
  2. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter

    No, you keep carelessly switching from one word to another.

    We all have a right to be treated equally under the law.

    If one group is not afforded those rights, against the rule of law, then that does not turn it into a privilege for those who keep the right.

    A privilege is something which can be legitimately removed.

    A right cannot be legitimately be removed.

    Rights and privileges are quite different things. You're using incorrect language. You're guilty of the error of high redefinition.
    wanet likes this.
  3. Orkadia

    Orkadia New commenter

    According to Oxford dictionary:

    A special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

    ‘education is a right, not a privilege’
  4. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter

    Rather than discussing the concerns of BME teachers who've posted on this thread, you're complaining about the words used.

    Which clearly shows you don't get it.
  5. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter

    Or should people who are treated differently by society and who do suffer discrimination and face barriers modify their language when discussing it just so people feel comfortable and don't feel guilty when it's discussed.
  6. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter

    We're discussing issues using language. Words have meaning.

    If you don't understand that, then you're the one who doesn't get it.
    Oscillatingass likes this.
  7. vinnie24

    vinnie24 Lead commenter

    I agree with you on this point. I have to admit the phrase 'white privilege' does not sit easily on the eye for me and I can see why it may irritate people. I think it makes people feel that they are under attack when they are not. It just a way of describing what is a naturally occurring phenomenon.

    It may be used to make people feel guilty but I don't think it has on this thread.
  8. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter

    You, as a white, straight male have massive advantages in society. Far few barriers in life than other people.

    I can see that must be hard to give up.
  9. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter

    The other thing about it is that you don't even realise it. It's just 'normal' for you. So when people start to give their experiences, rather than dismiss them, it's probably more helpful to listen to them.
    Flere-Imsaho likes this.
  10. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter

  11. SomethingWicked

    SomethingWicked Occasional commenter

    I'm gonna ask an innocent question and I really hope it doesn't explode into an inquisition about my background re: privilege (e.g. "1. Are you BME?!", etc) because if one thing has been shown over the last ten pages it's that that tone hasn't led to any constructive dialogue, just people getting angry at each other. Apologies if that preamble inflames things but I really just want to ask a question:

    @MonMothma (and anyone else who wants to chime in), when you say "I can see that must be hard to give up." (#208), can I clarify whether you think 'white people' need to be brought down somehow, or if you think the rights and privileges experienced by 'white people' should be extended to BME people?

    By way of dodgy analogy, consider an impoverished country in which there exists a small number of rich people and a large number of poor people. Is it your goal that everyone has the benefits of a rich lifestyle, or would you rather everyone be poor? (we will have to overlook the disastrous macroeconomic effects of either outcome in this analogy, for the sake of discussion I hope)

    It hasn't been entirely clear to me from your earlier comments, and I hope you can help me understand your position.
  12. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter

    I'm not BME. I'm talking from a feminist position. But I understand the idea of privilege and barriers.
    I'd like to live in a world without barriers. Where people aren't judged by the group they are in, their sexuality, gender etc.

    Being born in a certain group does confer advantages. I think it would be great if everyone had those advantages.

    Look at schools. Having money helps people buy a home in a good catchment area. Should we scrap that idea so everyone has equal chance to go to a good school? Or should every school be a good school?

    It makes me a hypocrite by saying that I wouldn't want to give up the privilege I have knowing my child can go to a good school. But I would fight for all children to have the chance to go to a good school.
  13. SomethingWicked

    SomethingWicked Occasional commenter

    Thank you for a quick and respectful answer, I'm glad you could clear that up for me.
  14. Smithy84

    Smithy84 New commenter

    I agree, the response shown by some of the posters here prove the title of this thread. We need more BME teachers to dispel this racist ideology that is a cancer to teaching.

    Can you imagine people like Frank and Ed telling their BME students racism doesn't exist, just suck it up. What an absurd position. People like this are dragging us back the the 'good ol days' of the 1960's.

    A lot of people don't understand white privilege. It's not a way of making you feel bad, it's not even your fault. It's the way society had become. A good person recognises this exists and strives to make the world an equal place rather than getting defensive and even worse, denying that BME teachers experience racism. How can you be a non BME teacher telling BME teachers racism doesn't exist? Absolutely insane.

    This thread is only carrying on became some of our posters do not believe racism occurs in teaching when there is evidence to the contrary. People are instead focusing on decoy issues like tone of language, bullying within teaching. Yes we get it but the point that was being discussed was that BME teachers experience racism. Not all do but a significant portion do. Why is that so hard to accept? If you deny this how different are from the white supremacist? At least they have the courage to stand up for what they believe in openly, you just hide behind proxy issues and deny racism exists. Take a long hard look at the mirror folks.
  15. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    You seem to like libelling people - lucky for you I've got better things to do than sue you. After all every time you write something here you prove to be pretty dumb. I'm starting to feel a bit sorry for you, tbh. You can't write logical, honest posts it seems... Just fantasies about what other posters might say (which, in my case, turns out to be 100% wrong. Like the rest of your posts).

    FWIW I actually taught in some schools that were a mostly full of BME students (& others that weren't).
  16. SomethingWicked

    SomethingWicked Occasional commenter

    I think the language - tone and otherwise - is immensely important in this discussion, and it is our responsibility to be respectful and accurate in every instance. Take, for example, the transition from the expression "coloured people" to "people of colour". On paper this seems trivial (almost just swapping word order), but the distinction is important (as Benedict Cumberbatch found a couple of years ago).

    Similarly, I find the expression 'white privilege' problematic. It suggests that there are privileges experienced by all white people, when in fact it isn't so cut and dry. Polish people and white Syrians, for example, experience discrimination (and many more groups besides), despite all being caught under the banner of 'white privilege'. A much better term, in my opinion, is 'privilege experienced by many white people'. Not as catchy, but then neither is 'people of colour' when compared to the less cumbersome 'coloured people'.

    I suspect (though make no claims to testifying!) that a large part of casual racism is encoded in inaccurate language, and that if both sides could be more thoughtful we could have a more helpful discussion. Ideally, I'd like to see hyperbolic accusations of sockpuppeting and 'white supremacy' put to one side so we can talk about the topic, and not at each other.
    lanokia likes this.
  17. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter

    I am sure that experience taught you a lot about the racism such students experience and the barriers they face in life.
  18. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter

    I don't have 'advantages', I have rights which I believe everyone should enjoy.

    Why on earth would I be 'giving up' anything if everyone enjoyed them?

    We have a BME population of roughly 15%, and no one suggests no one of BME origin has no rights at all at the moment.

    Subsequently, if the BME population were treated the same as the non-BME population it'd barely make a difference to most of the latter. So what exactly would I be giving up?

    You're talking as if we're living in apartheid South Africa with whites in a tiny minority and about to lose everything when the majority black population takes control.

    I look at my school. We have a few BME teachers. Not proportionate. If the numbers were to become proportionate we'd have a few more, it'd probably take 5 years or so, based on staff turnover.

    Difference to me? Zilch, apart from a quiet satisfaction in knowing its happened.

    Your insult that there are things I'm not prepared to give up merely underlines your ignorance, and the paucity of your argument.

    If your argument had any strength, you'd not be replying in talking about me and what I'd like when you have no idea what you're talking about.
    FrankWolley and Oscillatingass like this.
  19. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    You seem to be making heavy weather of a fairly straightforward concept.
  20. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter

    You do. You just don't realise you have them.

    Have you ever learnt about 'barriers to learning'?

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