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NASUWT says 68,000 BME teachers needed.

Discussion in 'Education news' started by Mr_Ed, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Landofla

    Landofla Established commenter

    I've never taught a boy who aspired to be a teacher even though being a teacher is the dream said by probably one half of the girls I have asked. I think it is because it isn't socially acceptable for males... Well, it is but it isn't, if you know what I mean. In my opinion, that stigma belongs in the bin along with blue for boys and pink for girls. Hate that!
  2. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter

    Do you think that

    a) BME pupils should see BME teachers so they see that people from their background can become teachers and that it's something they can aspire to

    b)White pupils should see BME teachers so they see BME people as part of their everyday experiences and in 'normal' jobs rather than never coming into contact with BME people and so they then see them as 'other'?

    (Those questions can be applied to any group - such as LGBT people, women (in the past), disabled people, Muslims / people of faith?)

    If no one comes across BME people on a day to day basis, then it's easy to see BME people as other / be manipulated to see BME people as 'other'.

    If you are from a BME background but don't see BME people in positions of power / in aspirational jobs and roles, it's hard to see yourself getting ahead. People need role models.
    abukar29386 and Moony like this.
  3. Bobbbs

    Bobbbs Occasional commenter

    I'm sorry, but this thread is a mess.

    I'm a paddy, do I get a free pass to insult and accuse all British people of bigotry?

    God above, this thing is just mental.
  4. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter

    I suspect that some people on here would have dismissed any Irish person's experiences of discrimination (especially during the late 20th century) because "they'd never heard of it or seen it happening".
    Smithy84 likes this.
  5. vinnie24

    vinnie24 Lead commenter

    What is the post number where this happened?

    I'm British I don't recall feeling insulted in this thread.
  6. Moony

    Moony Lead commenter

    Using what you've said here to highlight a key point related to this issue.

    The data is in, genetically there is no basis for the notion of race, it's all ********. There is more genetic diversity between me and my fella than there is between me and a woman of any skin tone. In a talk I was on about genetics it was brought up that in the relavent gene/allele there is only one base different between pasty white folk and those of a much more recent African descent. So there you go, the genetics that handle things like the width of our nostrils are really minor and unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

    There are a couple of key things/caveats to be had.

    The first is that just because race is a ******** I dismiss concept that doesn't mean the same for racism. That is very real and effects people the world over of various ethnic and cultural backgrounds and the impacts of it on those on the receiving end can be devastating.

    The second is that, and it's important because I'm invoking science, is that this is based on the out of Africa model that we've had for human evolution. There's been a discovery that may muddy the waters but I've not yet had the time to get my head round it and it's impact on the current models.

    Fun bonus factoid on this, again it's data from genetics.....whilst our species did replace Neanderthal's we did co-exist with them for some time. Long enough for a bit of interspecies boots knocking to take place. The population of North Western Europe has a small amount of Neanderthal DNA in its genetics, so if any group of people are the 'purer' humans it ain't white folks. I find that pleasantly amusing because of how white supremacists get bent out of shape about being the 'pure race'. Also in addition to that, and I got this from a great BBC series on the history of Black Britain, all the descendants of any Black people that made the UK their home in Georgian times are indistinguishable from the bulk of the population. Now that's not good in the sense they've potentially lost their connection to an important part of their family past, its just something else that would wind up a white supremacist.
  7. Moony

    Moony Lead commenter

    Given how much movement there has been across the Irish Sea you'd be wrong to. There are many English people with Scottish/Irish/Welsh in their family tree and the same goes for the other three.

    The thread isn't a mess, it's settled down from the earlier agitated responses and people are able to talk about things more effectively.
  8. Smithy84

    Smithy84 New commenter

    Did you not read the survey done on thousands of BME teachers that I've already posted here? It said more than half of BME teachers felt aggression and discrimination due to skim colour. This is from a survey of thousands of BME teachers....
  9. Mr_Ed

    Mr_Ed Established commenter

    But what about this survey: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-13144789

    "Bullying in school is a problem for many staff as well as pupils, according to a teachers' union survey.

    The bullies are often other teachers who pick on their staffroom colleagues - with heads and senior staff alleged to be among the worst culprits.

    The survey, from the Association of Teachers and Lecturers, says about a quarter of teachers have been bullied by another member of staff."

    Why do you insist on highlighting the racial angle? Which was entirely my point when I started this thread.
    wanet likes this.
  10. Smithy84

    Smithy84 New commenter

    Where in this thread did all British people get accused of racism? The concept of white privilige has been mentioned but that isn't specific to British people.

    Also, Are you making the assumption that all British people are white?
    abukar29386 likes this.
  11. Smithy84

    Smithy84 New commenter

    The problem is that you are dismissing the racial angle with another issue.

    Is there bullying in teaching that affects all groups? Yes absolutely

    Is there bullying that that affects BME teachers because of their background? YES absolutely

    Both of those issues can exist synergistically. You seem to be in denial that BME teachers get discriminated against.

    I am not dispiriting the fact that bullying happens to everyone however, I am challenging your dismissive attitude to the concerns of BME teachers.

    Do you understand now?
  12. Mr_Ed

    Mr_Ed Established commenter

    To be honest, this thread went pear shaped with post #2, white privilege! What???

    What about BME privilege, an obvious antonym, so to speak, that may or may not exist. See: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...diversity-targets_uk_57f0c520e4b0e315f283982e

    Could schools in the future, take similar action to the BBC, if they want to follow the NASUWT line?

    A few years back, I had some difficult personal circumstances and I approached the local housing association for help. I was told to fill in a form, but they were upfront with me and I was told "...things were not hopeful", as “I didn't tick many of the boxes”. I ended up on a list but never in social housing and that was the end of that.

    So much for 'white privilege'.

    Some people have suggested Smithy84, Vinnie24 and Monmothma are one and the same. If so, I would hazard a guess that behind the mask(s) lies Diane Abbott.

    (See: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...er-race-row-branding-taxi-drivers-racist.html)

    "...previously, Abbott faced accusations of racism suggesting that the 'blonde blue-eyed Finnish girls' working in her local hospital were unsuitable as nurses because they had 'never met a black person before'."!!!
  13. vinnie24

    vinnie24 Lead commenter

    Don't take the white privilege thing personally. I can't speak for Smithy (although you think I can) but I don't think he is having a go at you or anyone imparticular. As a white person in a white dominated society, there are benefits that you have due simply to the colour of your skin. You can't help that of course but it would be useful if you would recognise that is the way things are, because while there are positive effects for you there are negative effects for others.

    Working together we can do something about this so that everyone benefits. This initiative helps, though in the current climate they would be lucky to get 68 extra teachers never mind 68000.

    Not recognising there is a problem, however, means we can never get started and we will continue to have BME arguing on one side and white on the other. Pretty much like this thread.

    This might explain what is meant by white privilege.


    Smithy may have a different take on this.
  14. Mr_Ed

    Mr_Ed Established commenter

    Good post and the link has explained it well.

    I was joking about you Vinnie24 and Monmothma all being the same by-the-way & I just can't believe a thread I have started has had such a response, almost 200 replies over three days. I guess it shows what a contentious issue this still is, sadly.

    P.S. I especially liked this bit: "....working together we can do something about this so that everyone benefits. This initiative helps, though in the current climate they would be lucky to get 68 extra teachers never mind 68000."

    Someone put a witty response in another thread (in personal) apparently the Govnt are spending big money to train and recruit 600 teachers from abroad. It was pointed it if they can make sure all 600 are BAME, it would mean there are only 67,400 more required, to meet the NASUWT target!!!
  15. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter

    Just someone who understands what discrimination is, what othering is and how people who don't experience it and worry about it DAILY can often struggle to get it.

    And then get the usual suspects who suggest that there's no issues, no discrimination, no unconscious sexism /. racism / LGBTism because they haven't seen it and "we've got equality now".

    Privilege is everywhere. White privilege, male privilege, straight privilege, class privilege etc.
  16. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter

    The word 'white' can be replaced by other words - straight, male, middle class etc...

    It's hard to recognise your privilege. And harder to give things up / make a difference
    Smithy84 and Spoofer4114 like this.
  17. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter

    And there lies the whole problem with this divisive and inaccurate phrase.

    I'm white, male and straight. I have certain rights which I think it's absolutely correct that all humans have.

    A right IS NOT a privilege. Ever. Don't ever use language which paints a right as a privilege. Ever. If others have those right curtailed, it still doesn't make them a privilege for those for whom they're not curtailed.

    The whole idea of this hateful phrase is to make people feel guilty for having rights which it's quite correct that they enjoy.
    wanet likes this.
  18. MonMothma

    MonMothma Lead commenter

    It's not about rights. It's about the way people are treated.

    The idea is to make people realise that others are treated differently - even if we all have the same rights. Subconscious treatment, the way that authorities treat you.

    As a white, middle class person, I have no doubt that I have privilege when the police stop me compared to someone who is white and working class. And especially compared to someone who is BME and deals with the police.

    Yet under the law, we all have the same rights.
  19. hs9981

    hs9981 Established commenter

  20. marihair

    marihair New commenter

    I'm with MonMothma and Smithy 100000%.
    Also to add it is very difficult to post experiences of being a BME teacher if you're not one- I think that's quite obvious. It's not to say that you cannot join in the conversation but to state what an experience is of a BME teacher when you are not one is the incorrect thing to do.

    I don't think the word 'privilege' should lead one to feel guilt, it's just an acknowledgement of the advantages you have had in life. Everyone has a privilege - including myself who happened to be born to parents who love education. Do I feel guilty for that? No. Does everyone in society have different amounts of privilege? Yes- some race dependent, some not. It's life.

    Also I am slightly concerned by some comments if they are teachers of BME pupils too- it does show why more BME teachers are needed. SOME comments are actually providing evidence for the article not against!

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