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MORE thoughts on the EU referendum.

Discussion in 'Personal' started by lexus300, Mar 24, 2016.

  1. lexus300

    lexus300 Star commenter

    After a bit of reading and thinking and extracting:

    Continental Europeans seem to have no problem with the EU pressing for ever-greater union. This is a fundamental perception gap between us and them.

    The 'remain' camp in GB have very few people who argue publicly for ever-closer union.

    The debate is generally about whether we want to be part of a free trade area or not. When you argue about it like that, Brexit might seem like a bad idea.
    1. A vote to remain is a vote for the status quo.
    2. A vote to leave may seem like a weird decision (to our existing trading partners), in the hope of getting a better deal by increasing our trading across the world whilst maintaing EU trading levels.
    The problem is that neither 1 or 2 describes the issue.

    It doesn’t matter how much we are reassured about not being part of an ever closer union, we need to remember that the entire bureaucratic structure of the EU was built on the prospect of ever closer union. This is the main reason why Brexit makes sense to me. It doesn’t seem sensible to be a member of a club that wants something that you may be opposed to IE., The EU wants ever-closer union, WE do not.

    With the 'ever closer' union argument it is worth noting that GB may not be the only member of the EU who has little desire to be further tied together as part of a United Europe.

    IMO., a United States of Europe is the only way that the 'euro' makes sense and a further complication is with countries having grossly different economies and/or political cultures.

    IMO., it only works if the people want it to work. History demonstrates that when you impose artificial borders and artificial unity on a group of human beings, it tends to blow up in your face.

    Another question about the EU., is whether or not they genuinely have the good will from their electorates to forge ahead with it. If they did, then perhaps the Greek crisis might never have happened. Germany would have given Greece money unconditionally and Greece may then have tried harder to balance their books.

    The EU is a mess because whether you admit it or not, there is this unification project argument at the heart of it and perhaps some EU nations are glad that the UK is a member because we act as a critical brake on its excessive needs/wants.

    If we leave, then it might force the EU to take a proper look at itself, and encourage some transparency and an acknowledgement of realities that are currently being glossed over largely by money printing and political wishful thinking.
    midnight_angel, wanet and Vladimir like this.
  2. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    Even if I accept what you say about continental Europeans, it's a fairly big assumption that "we" don't want closer ties too. And then you go on to question whether the continental European electorate are enthusiastic about closer union which sort of tramples all over your initial point.
  3. Sebastianandfriends

    Sebastianandfriends Occasional commenter

    I'm not sure if that's the case really. Of course it would depend on the sources used. But if we really look at it we will see that other Europeans opinions are rarely sought and even more rarely given air time. Much like it is here in fact where any divergence from the pro-EU stance is rubbished as being bigoted, sources such as the Telegraph, Daily Mail, Daily Mirror, Sun etc are constantly derided as being lies simply because they report on real opinions which run counter to those who support the elitist agenda. Yet when the Communist anti-EU Morning Star comes out on the side of Brexit it is met with loud silence. So I think we need to be careful about accepting the lack of evidence that we are the only country against ever-closer EU creep. We can't know this due to us not being allowed to hear what they have to say and them being disallowed from having their views heard.
    lexus300 and Vladimir like this.
  4. lexus300

    lexus300 Star commenter

    No, I mention that some European states MAY lack a bit of enthusiasm for even closer ties. They are not all Franco-Germanic in outlook.
    Vladimir likes this.
  5. Vladimir

    Vladimir Senior commenter

    Only one thought is required - OUT!
  6. Sebastianandfriends

    Sebastianandfriends Occasional commenter

    I think it's obvious they do not have the good will of their electorates to make decisions which benefit huge corporates which in turn impoverish the lives of the electorate. Greece is the clearest example of this and there are many others. The huge opposition of E. European countries to the EU imposition of migrant quotas is another. Soon the whole of Europe will have razor wire around it. The rise of far right parties is yet another. But does the EU address these issues? Of course not because they have an ideological mind-set which prevents them from seeing they are the cause of the problems and from which they will not drop because their ideology is more important to them than the cost to millions of people's lives and the countless deaths which arise from it.
    lexus300 likes this.
  7. oldsomeman

    oldsomeman Star commenter

    The whole point is that if it had remained as a trading alliance then there would be no need for a Brexit.However, the fact that the 'leaders' thought it was good to integrate us all as some great Orwellian state is whats caused the problem
    We are aware we might still have to meet the standards of say packaging and presentation to sell goods..but they want us all to be ruled by an un-elected group of ministers who care more aaout joining rather than the opinions of those in the group.To unify the borders,trade etc they decree we should give up our rule for theirs( and will increase as time goes by due to the very idea of forming a global state)......and the whole point now is that if we stay we will slowly lose identity as a nation and take on a mantel of European. As a label it means little other than I belong to a continent labelled Europe. People are people and when I travel in Europe I realise that people in many ways are no different to myself..no problems.Yet I don't accept that non elected rulers should control a large part of my laws and being or indeed make rules for a nation they care little for.
    At the end of the day we oldies remember the past and maybe we are proud of what UK has done......maybe those who want to continue under EU rule dont worry who rules them?
  8. lexus300

    lexus300 Star commenter

    Nicely stated:)
  9. sabrinakat

    sabrinakat Star commenter

    I can understand why people are wanting to be 'out', whether it's a gut feeling or based on 'fact'. I think it boils down to each person - do they personally see the benefits or disavantages of EU membership? For someone who has been negatively affected, then voting 'out' makes sense,etc.

    However...if the UK stays in, doesn't that mean we have some sort of voice; but if the UK opts out, will anyone care what the UK thinks? America doesn't - the special relationship isn't important to them.

    Do you honestly think the UK would be better off outside the EU? Do you want an isolationist approach (de Valera tried that in Ireland, which stymied all economic progress for 30 years) - what do you think the UK would be like? Scotland will leave, not sure about Northern Ireland....

    Are you thinking that England will return to a past that never existed? A England of church bells, ladies on cycles, warm beer, the Queen, the glories of the Empire, cricket in the village park, am dram and summer Gilbert & Sullivan, etc. Read Jeremy Paxman's The English (a great read, by the way) and tell me -

    What England is the right England?
  10. Sebastianandfriends

    Sebastianandfriends Occasional commenter

    Oh dear. Where do you live?
  11. lexus300

    lexus300 Star commenter

    If we stay in we will no longer exist as a nation IMO.
    I really do not care about the so called special relationship, the US only cares about its own vested interests, we are not quite so selfish which is a pity perhaps?
    I believe the referendum is not just a matter of whether we will be better off, it is a matter of identity, of self determination, of re-establishing a British nation rather than an appendage of some European dream land. It is a bit rich when an American talks critically about isolationism.
  12. sabrinakat

    sabrinakat Star commenter

    I asked a simple question - you answered it clearly and succinctly.

    Could I also say that - as an outsider, I believe that the UK is a unique and special place that isn't sure of its place in a modern world. I appreciate your comments, whilst I disagree with them. I disagree that Britain will suffer a national identity crisis if they remain part of the overall EU collective.

    My query and my previous post were heart-felt - I do not know the England that you think it will become, if the UK leaves the EU, but I prefer the modern England with a great appreciation of its past, its present and its future.

    However, there was no reason for your last comment whatsoever. I wasn't rude to you personally. I could play the ' oh, we saved your butt in WW2', but I know that is absolutely NOT the truth as I have been re-educated as to what England did from 1939 onwards, but your comment was inappropriate and jingoistic (is that a word) one - one that I tried NOT to play. We've managed to respect each other on other threads, I do hope you appreciate why I am annoyed by your last comment. :(
    Burndenpark likes this.
  13. oldsomeman

    oldsomeman Star commenter

    Are you thinking that England will return to a past that never existed? A England of church bells, ladies on cycles, warm beer, the Queen, the glories of the Empire, cricket in the village park, am dram and summer Gilbert & Sullivan, etc. Read Jeremy Paxman's The English (a great read, by the way) and tell me
    To me it would be a rosy eyed concept to try and go back to such ideas. the world has changed since such days.and even in those days it was not such a pretty place as seems to be portrayed.
    However, the difference was that we were ,for better or worse, in charge of our destiny.
    No one should underestimate the task of what might happen in a Brexit happening.ruoes,dictates and controls need to be imposed and relaxed.the nation needs to face up and shoulder the task of survival.The politicians need to stop poncing around get on with governing......if not then out they go to be replaced by those willing towards making us a good nation.
    Our problem is we have those in charge who want the status que to remain and not have to deal with all the difficulties such and exit might bring.
    I just worry that we dont have a leader who will lead us out to the better land.or at least kick out rears to get us up and running.
    sabrinakat likes this.
  14. sabrinakat

    sabrinakat Star commenter

    Agree - Cameron is no....Churchill.

    I am struggling, apologies. I didn't grow up here - I don't know how much England has (or hasn't) changed. Why do people think they are not in charge of their own individual or collective destiny?

    I am genuinely curious (and sleepy)....
  15. silvaran

    silvaran Occasional commenter

    The EU conducts regular opinion polls about how it is perceived across member states, the polls may be on integration, economic direction, etc. The lack of evidence of it in the UK is because the UK press is generally not interested and doesn't report it as the union is generally viewed fairly positively by the citizens of the EU even though it is in a time of considerable crisis. Similar levels of euroscepticism to the UK are only evident in 3 or 4 other states, one of which is Greece. Ireland has one of the most positive ratings of the EU.
  16. oldsomeman

    oldsomeman Star commenter

    I an mot sure we have a collective identity any more.There is one among older folk brought up to be proud we were British among us post war babies.However , in school its rare for proudness to be mentioned. We have a flag which is often abused and leaders do not seem to care, Indeed of all the nations in this world we seem to be one of the few that does not honour the county's flag.Americans and others do display their flag with pride.they sing their anthem and salute to the heart when it plays. The last time I heard the British national anthem sung with gusto was at the Olympics. I was once so ashamed in school when it was the late Queen Mothers birthday that no teacher in the school knew the NA and even worse none for 220 children knew it either.They were amazed when we did play/sing it and were chuffed we had.but I had to find the music and words for them
    We are forming ourselves into an anti monarchy nation and so have less regard for the Queen as the prime ruler.We sings of land of hope an glory, but we seem to have stumbled into complacency.....which is why we need the Brexit to kick us back into touch.its to easy to let another rule and you blame them for all the ills.
    Since I was a boy some 69 years ago of course it has changedit has changed...we can at times rise and celebrate achievement .such as a war victory in Falklands( although if there was another there our leaders to day would say oh what and dont bother challenging such events.)we shout about football, we get a poor reputation for debauchery and drunkenness yet think its great to represent our nation in this way....especially by young people who seem totally hedonistic in life style according to the media.....but i reality they are few.
    Yet underlying . and when aroused, we are prepared to be a nation which will fight ,one proud of its heritage and past...and has a fair concept of right and wrong even if we do not always show it.
    What we lack is a leader to take us by the scruff of the neck and make us proud of the name United Kingdom.
    Ps i wouldn't trust Cameron to do it and Corbyn would probably we t himself if he had to do such a task!
    lapinrose and lexus300 like this.
  17. Didactylos4

    Didactylos4 Star commenter

    We don't need to do all that Olds
    We are British after all
    racroesus likes this.
  18. oldsomeman

    oldsomeman Star commenter

    Indeed because without it Ireland would be in dic kys meadow land...lots of Irish are coming back to the UK to work......and worrying in case we leave as there money source might go.
    I have never seen an opinion pole conducted by the EU.must be like my local council ones.given to a select few and not to the ordinary folk:(
    lexus300 likes this.
  19. oldsomeman

    oldsomeman Star commenter

    Yeap so British that only people taking out citizenship cover areas the born British never learn...
    When was the last time you saw the union flag raised in our schools? I have seen lots from other countries but ours doesn't get prominence....in fact one of my mates was told to take his flag down outside his house as it might offend the Muslims.( imagine them saying that to an American)......and the man opposite our house came and complained as my daughter had one in her loft window.....I told him that there are planes leaving for his country if he did not like it. He wanted to get the council to force me to remove it.I did also tell him to go ahead and i would ask the police why he was staring in the window of a young woman...never heard any more.
    lexus300 likes this.
  20. lexus300

    lexus300 Star commenter

    I am sorry if you felt offended that was never my intention. I do not see you as an outsider at all, you are an equal in every way. I feel very strongly that GB has been degraded by EU membership and yes I agree that we seem to have lost our way in the world especially in recent years, yet who does the US turn to when the going gets tough?
    I am old enough to remember what it was like prior to joining the common market, IME it was better before, not perfect by a long way but better. Hope you are not annoyed with me for too long;)

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