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Meanwhile, in France...

Discussion in 'Personal' started by Vince_Ulam, Apr 19, 2018.

  1. schoolsout4summer

    schoolsout4summer Star commenter

  2. artboyusa

    artboyusa Star commenter

    Nice of him to take Mum out for lunch with friends.
    lanokia and Vince_Ulam like this.
  3. catmother

    catmother Star commenter

    I hope you don't think you're the first one to make this rather feeble joke.
    nizebaby likes this.
  4. artboyusa

    artboyusa Star commenter

    I'll rephrase it, if that will make you happy.
    "It was nice of this clueless sock puppet to take his wife, who is also his former teacher
    [This comment/section/image has been removed for breaching our Community Guidelines/Terms and conditions] when he was 15 and she was married and who is old enough to be his mother, out to lunch with friends while the country he was slotted into place to rule on behalf of his globalist owners is being torn apart".
    That any better for you?
    lexus300 likes this.
  5. lexus300

    lexus300 Star commenter

    Works for me.
  6. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    Manny doesn't need sunglasses.
  7. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Clearly best not to rephrase.. gives people ammunition.
  8. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Here come the troops:

    artboyusa likes this.
  9. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Ah deploying troops... always a sure sign of a strong and stable democracy.

    Find it bizarre in UK Brexit discussions that remainders laud macron on Brexit while his country fellow the army to maintain order.
    Jonntyboy likes this.
  10. artboyusa

    artboyusa Star commenter

    Here it comes...
  11. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    What the hell did my phone do?
  12. fraisier

    fraisier Established commenter

    Yes, it does hit sooner much sooner than in the UK, the threshold depends on who inherits from whom. If it’s children from parent(s) (aka “une succession en ligne directe”), it kicks in at €100,000, see table below. I don’t therefore understand why your wife had to pay any tax on €10,000, she certainly had to pay notary fees (frais de notaires) but paying any inheritance tax on that seems strange to me.

    If you look at the table below, the first one on the left, “Pour une transmission en ligne directe”, the key term in the table is “abattement” = tax allowance, and as you can see the abattement for a succession parents-to-children, and vice-versa, is €100,000. Then, it goes up by tranches (“Montant taxable après abatement” – taxable amount after allowance), 5% for €8,072 over €100,000, then 10% from €8,072 to 12,109 it’s 10% etc. up to 45%.
    There is a point at which you end up paying slightly less inheritance tax than in the UK, for higher amounts, eg for an inheritance of €800,000 /say £800,000 or thereabouts for the sake of convenience. If a British child inherits £800,000, (s)he have to pay £800K-325K x 40% = £190,000. In France, the same child for the same amount in euros (€800K) would pay €182,000 and the differential would be even higher if the inheritance was €900,000.
  13. fraisier

    fraisier Established commenter

    The Hollande gvt, via Macron (then the newly-appointed economy minister) tried (too timidly) in 2014 to “libéraliser” this business through a bill, the gvt wanted to lower the fees and bring a competitive element to it but there was such an outcry from the notaries and other professionals involved that Hollande bowed to pressure and the notaries got their way. There were other “professions libérales” (i.e the more lucrative self-employed professionals, such as architects, lawyers, bailiffs etc.) involved in that bill, it wasn’t just the notaries but as everyone in their life has to deal with them at least once, it’s the notaries loudly complaining in the media and selling us their sob stories that the general public remember the most about that particular industrial action.


    At the time, 2013-2014, according to INSEE (the French ONS), the average yearly income of a notaire in France was €229,700 (figure based on their tax returns of the previous year), “Le revenu moyen par an des notaires est de 229 700 euros, selon l'Insee."

    Those figures are for a notaire who run her/his practice obviously, or partners, not for your average employee notaire. They pay tax on that though of course (the tranches are as follows) + social contributions but still, their yearly take-home pay is probably half that so not bad at all. Hollande backing down over that stuck in the craw of many ordinary voters. Hollande didn’t back down on the labour law reforms a year or so later, the so-called El Khomri law that went some way to liberalise France’s labour market. There was serious social unrest for over the year about that bill, the parliament repeatedly voted against the bill so Hollande bypassed the parliament and pushed the Labour bill with a special decree.

    French government to impose labor reform by decree in face of rebellion

    OK, fair enough, but one wishes that Hollande had shown the same resolve when dealing with the notaries, the lawyers, the architects etc. who can’t be said to be too hard up despite what they like to tell us (I understand them, they're fighting their corner, fair dos). The French Inland Revenue, who knows what income they declare, agrees that we shouldn’t feel too sorry for those professionals...

    Then the tw.unt Hollande wondered why he ended up with an approval rating of 4% in September 2016… It was so pathetically low that he sensed total humiliation if he were to run a second time for presidency as he'd intended to do, so he wisely decided not to run again whereas he’d sworn blind up to then that he was going to go for a second term in office.
  14. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    The local free paper has just added to my gloom.

    The local council is so far in debt that it is going to have to outsource yet more services to the private sector. How a private business can make a profit and offer an equal or better service I simply do not know!

    Dear @fraisier, I am now in danger of arousing the ire of others by asking questions on this thread (what with me having the temerity to have learned French and inherited just enough from my mother to buy a house in the UK) but do you know to what extent the private sector has infiltrated local government in France?

    Well, I invite anyone who knows to enlighten me!
  15. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Star commenter

    Work during woking hours. Answer the phone when it rings. Stop earning days off via flexible hours.
  16. fraisier

    fraisier Established commenter

    I don’t have any data but yeah, it’s commonplace, it roughly started (on a sizeable scale) in the early 2000s. It’s called “l’externalisation” or "la sous-traitance" (outsourcing, sub-contracting).

    The list of areas in the last two decades that have been outsourced by local governments in France (regions, departments, municipalities) is vast – the water supply system/water management, waste management (to giant Veolia for instance), the IT system, the accountancy, the parking enforcement, the school canteens, the parks & general gardening/upkeep, the technical dpt, the telephone network (such as this large town in Eastern France: La ville de Montbéliard externalise sa téléphonie), the Sanitation and Hygiene sector (eg this Normandy town: Le service propreté de Vernon sera externalisé), the energy/lighting system (to giants Vinci or Bouygues for instance), eg in Libourne, near Bordeaux, who’s just signed an agreement with Bouygues for €15 million for 15 yrs for its public lighting & maintenance via a public-private partnership, the article lists other municipalities doing the same as Libourne.

    That said, the norm is still that regions/departments and municipalities still do most of the above via their own services, hence the large number of local gvt state employees in France, who are called fonctionnaires territoriaux, about 2 million (out of 5.5 million fonctionnaires in total, so roughly the same as in the UK), so it’s still quite solidly public but outsourcing is growing.

    There’s been successes (especially in the more technical areas, eg I know of a town near Montpellier who successfully outsourced their water management system 10 yrs ago) but also a few scandals over the years, such as this one in Paris last year with the outsourcing of parking enforcement/fines to two private companies called Streeteo and Moovia (for a €6 million a year contract), turned out that these two shyster companies fabricated paperwork and encouraged their employees to do the same (fake fines etc.) to extract more money from the Paris Municipality (general skulduggery to shaft the Paris City Hall as the companies’ contract was also linked to them hitting their objectives with a series of bonuses being triggered along the way, basically a product of the nefarious effects of this target culture that we know too well in the UK, schools, NHS etc.).

    The French private sector is bigger than many foreigners seem to think (there is this bizarre assumption that France is a solidly socialist country in the way it's run with a puny private sector etc.), some of the French companies I’ve mentioned above who routinely get local gvt contracts are ginormous and world leaders in their area (Bouygues, Veolia or Vinci for instance – these three alone employ 660,000 people between them worldwide with a collective turnover of over €100 billion), needless to say these mega companies haven’t grown to such mammoth sizes without the help of the public sector and the lucrative contracts procured by French regions, departments and municipalities (and, sometimes, the "help" of a few bent mayors/local politicians...).
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
  17. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    One of the main reasons is that councils are run by well-meaning amateurs who give up a few hours a week after completing their main jobs, when they are totally exhausted and generally out of their depth on the complex matters that they are expected to control. It is very easy for officials to run circles around them.

    Businesses tend to be run by full-time professionals with expertise in the areas that they control.
  18. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    It would have been useful to have had this a year or 2 ago! Mrs FW's situation was a tad more complicated due to her mother's remarriage & the amount that she was said to have put towards the home she owned with her 2nd husband etc. The fact that the Notaire actually valued and sold the house seems strange to a Briton (I've been an executor here more than once...very different). There does seem to be much scope for corruption, IMHO.

    As the Notaire seldom deigned to reply to communications from Mrs FW and her siblings/stepfather seemed unwilling/unable to answer questions we asked or get truthful answers from the Notaire, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the Notaire took them all to the cleaners. Given the amounts at stake we didn't consider it worthwhile travelling to France, staying for weeks and trying to get some sense about this.

    FWIW It made me very glad we didn't buy a home in France, as we had considered doing, and determined that we won't in future either.
  19. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    My daughter can work a bank holiday, gets paid overtime and gets a day in lieu. In the private sector.
    lanokia likes this.
  20. fraisier

    fraisier Established commenter

    Well, many things will seem “strange” to a Brit in France that’s for sure (and vice versa), that's probably because, as no doubt you know, the countries' systems are very different.

    Yes, notaires are allowed to sell properties, it’s part of their prerogatives, I don’t think it should personally but that’s the way it is.

    Notaire’s fees on property transactions are much lower in comparison than the fees they take on inheritance or any other business in their remit. If the fees they take on property transactions do look high to foreigners that’s because notaires also act as tax collectors for the state and therefore collect property-related taxes (eg Capital Gains Tax owed by a vendor selling a second home or the equivalent of the Stamp Duty, which varies from 0.7% to 5.80% of the purchase price depending on a number of factors, old property, new property – less than 5 yrs old –, off-plan property etc.).

    Notaires’ fees on a property are only 0.8%-1.6% of the price of the property – sliding scale from €6,500 upwards, see below –, some notaire practices may charge a little more, like 2% (eg those in big cities as they have bigger overheads, eg their office would cost a lot more in terms of mortgage, rental, taxes etc. than in the countryside). If it’s any more than that, haggle or shop around but it’s roughly 1% of the purchase price, see table below.

    A single notaire can act for both sides as her/his role is first and foremost to ensure that the transaction is legal and that all documentation is correct, and as I’ve written to collect taxes on behalf of the state.

    From: http://www.frenchpropertylinks.com/thefees.htm:

    Notaires' Conveyancing Fees (paid by the buyer)

    A Notaire's fees are calculated on a sliding scale. Thus, the higher the price of the property, the lower the percentage the Notaire will take. The amount is usually in the region of 1% (plus TVA at 20%).

    Notaire fee percentages:

    Up to 6,500 Euros - 3.945%
    From 6,501 to 17,000 Euros - 1.627%
    From 17,001 to 60,000 Euros - 1.085%
    From 60,001 Euros - 0.814%

    The other fees that are paid to the Notaire but do not, in fact, ultimately go to the Notaire, are fees for stamp duty, land registry fees and other disbursements. All the Notaire's fees are usually paid by the buyer, even if the Notaire acts for both parties, which is normal as they are not supposed to protect the interests of either party over the other. If the seller instructs a different Notaire to the buyer, the fee for both Notaires is paid by the buyer. (In this case the work and fee is split between the two Notaires, it does not mean a higher cost for Notaires' fees.)

    Stamp Duty (paid by the buyer):

    0.7% for property less than five years old, 5.80% for older properties (though in some departments it is 5.09%). This is included in the fees paid to the Notaire.


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