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May backs grammar school expansion

Discussion in 'Education news' started by emerald52, Aug 7, 2016.

  1. SteveKindle

    SteveKindle Occasional commenter

    I never said it was terminal.

    Nonetheless, you're being equally hypocritical by your own terms.

    Like it or not, money can buy things it shouldn't be able to.

    Life and death? Children are dying right now for want of a £5 injection. How much was that bottle of wine I drank tonight? How much was your beer?

    Feeling morally clean? I'm not.
  2. delnon

    delnon Lead commenter

    If any of the government's policy lackeys is reading this thread, they'll be rubbing their grubby little hands with malevolent glee.

    Because they have us all arguing amongst ourselves over the merits of grammar schools when we ought to be arguing about the vandalism the Luddites in government are committing on all our schools. (But not theirs, oh no...)
    emerald52, curlyk and SteveKindle like this.
  3. SteveKindle

    SteveKindle Occasional commenter

  4. SteveKindle

    SteveKindle Occasional commenter

    delnon likes this.
  5. binaryhex

    binaryhex Lead commenter

    Another difference between the current Bog Standard comp system and grammars is how behaviour is dealt with and accepted.

    For example, When I worked in grammar schools, students who had their phones out had it confiscated immediately for the day and got a DT. A second offence meant it was confiscated until parents collected it. There was rarely any argument or debate. Parents were supportive. Students respected the rules. At my current place, trying to confiscate a phone is a time-wasting, lesson-ruining exercise. Students rarely hand them over, even when SLT are called. You then run the gauntlet of accusations, which have to investigated for fairness, and parents by and large are unsupportive, making up excuses why the school is unfair, why the phone shouldn't be confiscated etc.

    The above is the same for a DT. In a Bog Standard school, give out a DT and you can kiss goodbye to an hour of time. Students rarely turn up as you have to take your own DTs. You are then obliged to follow it up and involve tutors and SLT. Paperwork has to be filled in. You or someone else has to then collect them from the end of a class to make them do a DT, assuming they don't run off. It can be three weeks at my current place between a 'crime' and 'punishment'. Give out more than 3 or 4 DTs in a week, and that's most of your lunchtime, break and some after school gone. So most teachers don't as they don't have the time, and everything spirals out of control.

    No such problem in grammars. A punishment is a punishment and students do it. If they don't, a quick phone call home sorted out the matter 95% of the time.

    I know some students do well at a Bog Standard. But they could do so much more at a grammar. Those middle of the road students could have the opportunity to shoot for the stars but can't because of behaviour.

    More grammar schools is the answer to this complex question. The simple answer is just to keep letting the majority of students walk off a cliff into academic mediocrity.
    claire_jean_ and monicabilongame like this.
  6. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    The city and surroundings where I live has NO grammar schools and schools with some of the highest academic achievement in the country.

    You DON'T need selection, you need decent and consistent management in a school and everything else will follow.
    sabrinakat, delnon, vannie and 2 others like this.
  7. curlyk

    curlyk New commenter

    OK,trying not to be too cynical about an education system that has `evolved `from the Gold,Silver,Bronze School system of the 1940s into a 21st century 3 tier system of public,independent/academy,maintained schools , someone please tell me what splashing the cash on setting up another rash of Grammar schools is going to do to this fractured ,nay broken ,education system of ours ?In a country ruled by an elite 5% (our politicians, judges,senior police, medical consultants etc),the vast majority of whom have been privately educated ,is it really a surprise that the `haves` look after their needs and the needs of their children and the rest of the nations children can go hang ? How a Conservative party and its leader can claim to be the party of the people ,speaking up for `social mobility` , the rights of the workers ,social justice is beyond a joke . Academies and Grammar schools will just pick and choose the children that will make their league table position look good and where are those with SEND needs going to be educated ?We need more and better funded state schools, yes,comprehensives !, but not super sized schools.We need better coordinated and funded teacher training facilities ,we need the money given to Free schools and huge MATs re- directed into improving the buildings ,facilities and sports fields of our existing schools. Teachers need to be paid more ,their qualifications recognised, their pensions protected.Our profession and it is a profession, is being undermined and de- professionalised by Free and Acdemy schools being allowed to replace good teachers with years of experience ie,expensive teachers,with unqualified teachers and even TAs .When did education become big business, who is watching over those CEOs of all these MATs to check our tax payers money is actually going into the educational needs of our children ?Come on Teacher Unions, get your act together and challenge what this government is doing to our education system. But be honest with yourselves, striking just serves to animate the right wing press into a teacher hate frenzy,this government love us to strike ,it makes us look so bolshy and upsets parents so then the Government can push through even more regressive and retrograde policies.May wants us to return to some mythical Golden age eg the 50s ,surely someone out there will say no to this .
  8. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    As a rule of thumb - I reckon the ideal maximum number of pupils for a school is about 1200.
  9. curlyk

    curlyk New commenter

    PS.Anyone using phrases like Bog standard schools,feral children etc is being extremely insulting and simply mirroring the language of the current elite running this country, who despise`the Blob `as they call the majority of British people.By the way, what ever happened to Mr Gove.?
    vannie, stupot101 and emerald52 like this.
  10. binaryhex

    binaryhex Lead commenter

    More nit-picking from the 'carry on just the same as the last 30 years' crowd. No positive suggestions. No ideas to right the wrongs. The English language is a rich tapestry. Try using it to make some suggestions.
  11. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    I believe I just have

    More constructive than yours I might add.
    vannie and emerald52 like this.
  12. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    ..quite frankly if you're only solution is to hive off the bottom 10 or 20 % (pick a number) to god knows where at aged 11 then you really shouldn't be in this job.
    vannie and emerald52 like this.
  13. SteveKindle

    SteveKindle Occasional commenter

    Then the problem is your 'current place', not the fact that it's a comp.

    I work in a comp which is most definitely NOT in a leafy suburb - quite inner city, and mobile phone confiscation rules work exactly as they do in the grammar you were at. Yes, occasional students refuse to hand them over, but it's quite rare. If they do, they're sent to SLT. I've only known one student who refused to hand it to SLT and they were excluded.
    delnon and emerald52 like this.
  14. SteveKindle

    SteveKindle Occasional commenter

  15. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    And reinforcing several of the points already made.

    If the selection were later at say 13/14 and included a degree of teacher assessment/judgment that (might) help balance things out. At least until there were some sort of bribes scandal...

    I'd prefer we continued with trying to make all schools good and tackled the root causes of the problem kids - parents aspirations and attitudes. That can't be done in school.
    SteveKindle, stupot101 and emerald52 like this.
  16. phlogiston

    phlogiston Star commenter

    Grammar schools seem to take in the top 1/4 or 1/3 of the ability range that they've assessed. If the ability spectrum follows a bell shaped curve, then a large number of kids are not far off getting in, but have to accept what is left over, and the lack of opportunity to work with brighter kids, even in the stuff they're good at.
    It is the fate of these middle ability children that concerns me. I have observed parents go to considerable lengths to avoid sending their child to the local unselective secondary school.
    There was a lot of discussion of Finland. Lincolnshire is selective, with a curious distribution of grammar schools. Is there data available showing greater achievement or social mobility there compared to the rural bits of Cambridgeshire?
    emerald52 likes this.
  17. emerald52

    emerald52 Star commenter

    Binary you need to get a new job. Possibly in teaching but probably some other career. The school you describe is not good for you or the pupils. It it is not the structure but poor management. However I also feel that your inflammatory language - feral- spawn - for example, indicates that teaching is not for you. It is a very hard job and it may be that you coped when younger but are worn out now and so have become embitttered. The holidays are a good time to reflect on changes that we can all make. I do hope that the new Education secretary does not back grammars and the opposition make a concerted effort to oppose this.
    SteveKindle and vannie like this.
  18. stupot101

    stupot101 Established commenter

    @SteveKindle Thanks for the link.:) It does provie interesting reading and as pointed out, most of the arguements are discussed here.

    From the article

    'Furthermore, the highest performing school systems in the world, according to the PISA tests, are comprehensive'

    That's interesting. Our beloved politicians love to use the PISA test as a battering stick to beat teachers with.:(

    Yes. I do agree with this. The type who may have just missed the 'mark' and failed the exam. The children who may not understand things the fist time, but will work and make a large anount of effort in order to try and make progress. Those who are well behaved, and would be motivated if they were taught in an environment that is aspiratinal.

    Our 'beloved politicians' love the 11+ precisely because it is devisive. It is saying "we are only interested in the top 10% and F*** the rest of you " (I don't know what the exact percentage is, I've just plucked a figure from the top of my head, but you get the idea:))

    Some other dear poster has pointed out, that the politicians are probably reading this forum, and are relishing the fact that they have caused yet again another division within the teaching profession (Think 'House of Commons' poster:()

    We should also not lose sight of the fact that the bottom 20% need an education too. As 'teachers' we should be concerned about all children's needs and not just those of the 'few':(
    SteveKindle, emerald52 and peakster like this.
  19. stupot101

    stupot101 Established commenter

    Edit... sorry 'aspirational' :)

    (My stupid keyboard:mad:)

  20. vannie

    vannie Star commenter

    You said it was serious .... There is a world of difference and you know it. Nice deflection though. ;)

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