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Discussion in 'Primary' started by saluki, Jun 6, 2020.

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  1. saluki

    saluki Lead commenter

    I am going to refer to Pale Flower maths. Those of you who teach it will know what I mean. In my opinion it is a right load of old rubbish and teachers who teach it have told me so too.
    Now that the education system has been abandoned for the best part of 12 months - possibly longer- why are parents expected to teach such excrement?? As the whole National Curriculum has been suspended would it be acceptable for parents to return to the 'old fashioned' systems which are a whole sight less complex and easier to understand? Who invented this rubbish in the first place? and why???
    Parents have got to pay for the *(&%$ resources. It must be the biggest con in the world. Pale Flower maths seems a very dodgy organization to me who seem to have sucked in a lot of prize idiots. Other education websites have provided free resources for parents but Pale Flower maths are milking it for every penny.
    One of my friend's sons was not reaching expectations in secondary maths. She taught him herself and the end result was that he improved beyond all reason. He was quicker and more accurate than his teacher. His teacher just couldn't understand his working out :rolleyes:. I'm not sure how this panned out at GCSE although he had more than reached the required standard.
  2. sooooexcited

    sooooexcited Established commenter

    Why on earth do you think it's a load of rubbish?
  3. saluki

    saluki Lead commenter

    a) because kids don't understand it
    b) Number lines. What's that all about? Never had them in my day. Nor those box things.
    c) The only way that parents can teach it (or schools for that matter) is if they pay for the resources. Just plain wrong.
    d) Apparently children 'need many tools in their toolbox' Why?? Everything they were taught in year 1 is thrown out of the window in year 6. Why?
    I have now spent a fortune on buying the damned resources. Another con. I deserve a reduction on my council tax. If I'd bothered to buy the text book on Amazon it would have been over 60 pounds!! I decided that that was a step too far.
    Luckily, our family can afford to buy teaching resources. I would imagine a fair number of families don't know where to find them let alone be able to afford them.
    There have been over 100 views of this thread. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what's so good about Pale Flower maths.
  4. Caramel2308

    Caramel2308 Occasional commenter

    I don't know anyone who thinks it's rubbish. Where have you found all these teachers? Why are parents paying for the resources? I really don't understand. However, contrary to my lack of understanding of what you are trying to say, white rose helps children to really 'get' maths. That means rather than just remembering a process which might seem easy, they don't understand why they are carrying out the process so don't actually understand the maths - they just remember (and later forget) the process. I guess I must be an idiot though because you point out that they have sucked in a load of idiots.
  5. otters258

    otters258 New commenter

    If parents are paying for resources it is because the school their child attends has not stumped up the massive £139 for a years subscription to the premium resources for the whole school. Hardly WR fault. I have been teaching for years and am only a few weeks off retirement. WR small steps are the best planning tool I have ever used but of course if you are looking for an old fashioned text book with no thought required I can see they would not be for you.
  6. saluki

    saluki Lead commenter

    Teachers are not working and are not planning on working until next January. Or later.
    Therefore, parents are being told to home school their children. Worksheets are being supplied with no explanation of what is expected. Children are saying that they haven't been taught that and don't understand how to do it. (So much for them really 'getting' it).
    If it is so great why are different processes taught in the middle years? I asked 2 teenagers about number lines the other night. They hadn't got a clue what I was talking about.
    I have paid for some resources and they do look quite interesting. Maybe my anger should be directed at the school who haven't bothered buying the resources and haven't bothered teaching parents about the system. And yet, some parents are accountants and they don't understand it either.
    I learnt the old fashioned way. I got top grade in my O level Maths. I can still do sums and work out VAT and percentages in my head. If WR has been going so long and is so good why is there such a high failure rate in GCSE maths? Why do so many teenagers not know their times tables.
    p.s. It was actually a teacher from the school concerned who said it was very time consuming way of teaching and a bit pointless but gave them another arrow for their bow.
  7. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    I don't think WR can't be held responsible for the failure rates in GCSE maths....they've been around for about 5-7 years and the secondary part is newer than primary.

    I wouldn't expect a teenager to know much about numberlines, they probably haven't used that resource since primary school and not all schools use numberlines past KS1.

    To be frank all the criticisms you express are simply the 'modern way of teaching maths' and narrow minded parents have been expressing the same views throughout my whole career...so around 20 years. Nothing at all to do with WR.

    Other than having only taught for 24 years and another 20 to go until retirement, I agree with you completely.

    I can imagine for a secondary teacher who is used to working through a textbooks with no preparation other than to remember what page each class is up to, WR would be more work. But better teaching has always required more work than naff teaching.
    Pomza, Kartoshka and Caramel2308 like this.
  8. carriecat10

    carriecat10 Established commenter Community helper

    Any resource is only as good as the person using it. I don't have strong feelings about this resource one way or the other but it does frustrate me when people criticise something like this when actually the criticism seems to be aimed at the way it is being used.
    I do believe models and images such as number lines and bar models can be powerful tools to help children understand the structure of the mathematics.
  9. saluki

    saluki Lead commenter

    I am a GCSE and A level English teacher!! Not a Maths teacher. Therein lies the problem! You know what? Most of the parents aren't teachers at all. Amazing. Not even the accountants are teachers. The nurses aren't teachers. The shop assistants aren't teachers. The housewives aren't teachers. The solicitors aren't teachers. I would say that the majority of them are well educated and gained GCSE Maths.
    Yet, they are expected to understand and teach WR maths. I have yet to meet one who has a clue what they are doing. Many of them have chucked maths out of the window and simply can't be bothered. Maybe they are right.
    It's costing me a fortune. I am persevering. I am teaching it to myself. I have got the last two terms to cover in order to get up to date. Who knows? I may come back and tell you all that it is wonderful. However, many, many parents are not in a position financially or timewise to be able to do what I am doing.
  10. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    That is a failure of the school of their children then. Our parents are certainly not 'teaching' anything at all and schools where there is no teaching fron employed staff happening are largely pointing pupils towards oak academy and bitesize. I'd suggest neither of those will be much better if a non specialist is trying to teach whatever it is.
    I wouldn't have a hope in hell of teaching years 9-13 English and wouldn't be great at teaching English to years 5-8, though I did that a fair few years ago. That's not the fault of whatever scheme a school has chosen.
  11. indigo987

    indigo987 New commenter

    I have been setting from White Rose for my class, because I have found the free videos really help explain (we are not doing any live teaching, lack of technology and time, so this is the next best thing) and I have not asked any of my parents to spend money on the resources. The BBC bitesize daily lessons that link to each lesson have been perfectly suitable (for my Year 3s at least) with videos, quizzes and a daily worksheet or two, for no cost. I have found it a fantastic resource, and have been planning and teaching from the free small steps documents for the past 3 years, with no cost to me, my school or the parents.
  12. otters258

    otters258 New commenter

  13. otters258

    otters258 New commenter

    Yep it is the school your gripe is with. Feedback after the first week of home learning indicated that for some children learning new content using WR (or indeed any other resource) was too hard without a teacher delivering it. So we quickly added easier daily maths to our home learning website in which they can practise skills that they had covered in class before lockdown. That way they can choose which to access.
  14. ACOYEAR8

    ACOYEAR8 Star commenter

    "Teachers are not working and are not planning on working until next January. Or later.
    Therefore, parents are being told to home school their children. Worksheets are being supplied with no explanation of what is expected. Children are saying that they haven't been taught that and don't understand how to do it. (So much for them really 'getting' it)."

    Is this sweeping generalisation Tuesday or some such day I've missed because I've been writing lessons, giving feedback and providing pastoral support for over 250 children and their parents ?

    Although, I'm 2ndary, we've been very careful to ensure that any parental involvement may only be as a supervisory role. I am most certainly working and will continue to do so.
  15. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Star commenter

    I don't understand why you think that teachers are not working or planning on working until next January of you are a teacher? Does this describe you, because of so you are in a minority?

    The concepts and methods used by white rose are nothing special. People buy into it because it is a ready prepared SoW, lesson plans activities etc. If your not a confident maths teacher or time poor, I can see the appeal.

    The issues you describe are not the fault of that company. There is more emphasis on developing understanding of how maths 'works' rather than tricks and short cuts that were often taught (e.g. multiplying by ten you add a zero on the end) and then had to be unlearned.
    I guess there are equivalents in your subject line I before e except after c perhaps?

    Number lines should be an easy concept for adults. It shows how numbers are ordered. It can be less obvious for year R children how they are ordered which is why numberliness are useful.
  16. gainly

    gainly Star commenter

    Actually I find number lines useful with secondary students when simplifying algebraic expressions. They get very confused with minus signs.
  17. saluki

    saluki Lead commenter

    I do believe that the government announced that schools will not be reopening until September. Possibly January 2021. There is also talk of cancelling next years GCSE and A level exams.
    I am working. I am home schooling my grandchild because my daughter is working and the school is refusing point blank to open. Parents are climbing up the walls. Even key workers are struggling to get their kids into school.
    I am also working as a private tutor for GCSE. You should hear those parents on the subject of teachers! Even the schools that are providing online tuition.
    Yes. I know some teachers are working. I know some are really struggling and delivering a full online timetable. I know what my local primary, secondary and independent schools are up. There is a mixture of good, bad and indifferent. I hope that Ofsted is also monitoring home learning provision.
    I also know of one teacher who has lost his job due to coronavirus cost cutting and several others that have had pay reductions - with redundancies looming.
    I also know many, many teachers who have treated the lockdown as one big jolly from day one. Posting on facebook one minute that it's too dangerous to go back to work. The next, posting pictures of 20 people having a barbecue in their back garden.
  18. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Star commenter

    Well years R, 1 and 6 are back now. As you posted in the primary forum I assumed you are a primary teacher.
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