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Let us back, you wee ageist whippernappsers!

Discussion in 'Education news' started by Mrsmumbles, Jul 22, 2018.


Do we need a UK #letexperiencedUKteachersback campaign?

  1. Yes, why are TES ignoring this, parents and kids are fully aware of the need

    25 vote(s)
  2. Oh no,four supplies a term and unqualified inexperienced staff are great!

    0 vote(s)
  3. The fact that this poll exists proves that Uk teaching is stuffed

    19 vote(s)
  1. Mrsmumbles

    Mrsmumbles Star commenter

    I would like to start a thread asking for more teachers over 45 to be actually hired and kept in Schools. You know, us lot, the kids of the seventies and eighties. Not millennials. Us. Generation X. The ones with just a small good if not better academic degrees and ‘properly taught with placement periods’ PGCES. Or PGCFES. Oh, and higher degrees, as well, a fair few of us. And B Ed degrees. Meaning work experience and former careers. Research to enrich the teaching with. Decades of pastoral care experience to help the kids meaningfully, rather than shove a PSHE add-on at them. Oh, a decades of teaching experience, resources, published research, articles, examine experience...you know. We’re quite good. A lot of us weee kicked out because we weee good. And older. And earned more than £25k after tax. Can we have our desks back, pleas, Hinds?
    hhhh, George_Randle, Alice K and 3 others like this.
  2. Mrsmumbles

    Mrsmumbles Star commenter

    By the way I can spell ‘whippersnappers’, but my reading glasses aren’t on. Serves me right for being old, I suppose...
    needabreak and agathamorse like this.
  3. stonerose

    stonerose Occasional commenter

    Experience, knowledge, understanding, honed skills, years of accumulated work place practice.....I agree that these should count for something, but they don't. This is, IMO because it does not fit the much cherished 'business' model and push to academize (?) all schools, which will leave teachers in the gig economy zone so favoured by business. Michael Gove, who doesn't care for experts or expertise of any kind (saving his own), accelerated the academies prog. giving such organizations virtually open season to take over, fail, then leave, not just school communities but communities as a whole, to await the next white knight sponsor to take over the asset stripped carcass. Welcome to city asset stripping 'for the good of the children. Iti did us so well with the banks in 2007 didn't it?

    There is one small glimmer that I have witnessed in my neck of the woods. Parents are grumbling about a lack of stability and consistency in their children's schooling. One school SMT found themselves under fire when a large percentage of their teaching staff including a teacher who had service in the school in double figures and one who had one year service, left all at the end of one year. Hard to find a cogent argument to cover them both!

    In my own recent experience, I have been a volunteer helper for hearing readers in a school until concerns over an aspect of its management caused me to withdraw. (My previous experiences warning me of what was brewing.) Fast forward, a friend told me my ears should be burning because the children had missed reading to me. As an experienced teacher, I didn't just require them to 'bark' at the words: I asked open questions; characters, plot, settings, imaginative and descriptive text; I focussed on any chances to look at inference and wrote detailed notes about each child etc. etc. Children began to respond by bringing in books to show me and discuss in oral reviews. When I arrived at break time, a little group would ambush me begging to 'read' including previously reluctant readers. My friend told me one particular parent wanted to contact me, because it was the first time her daughter showed a positive response to reading, and wanted to hire me privately to work with her.

    The point I am attempting to make (in my roundabout muddling way) is that I didn't spring out of higher ed. clutching my teaching qual. fully formed like this. Neither was I 'trained' although I went on some training courses. It was a combination of the qualification process; in service training (not the death by powerpoint SMT gigs); opportunities to improve my practice, and last but not least, being able to ask for advice, help guidance from other experienced practitioners. As one Secret Teacher feature in The Guardian observed, the drainage of the experienced teachers (or their forced exits from the workplace is not just impacting on children its affecting staff informal mentoring too.
    hhhh, Alice K, agathamorse and 5 others like this.
  4. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    Chickens are coming home to roost.

    Scandals undermine the MAT system daily.

    Schools have a lot of trouble finding qualified teachers. Supply is ubiquitous, and yes, parents (and pupils) are becoming increasingly aware of the poor deal they are getting. I doubt it will change in a hurry though. There's no money for starters. Our young people will continue to be taught by inexperienced people on the edge of burnout or unqualified staff who are simply cheap. There's a lot of it about.
    Alice K, agathamorse, Jamvic and 4 others like this.
  5. Mrsmumbles

    Mrsmumbles Star commenter

    So well put. Could not agree with you more. Funny what you’re saying about the reading...I do a Summer reading project with the kids I tutor and get that sort of response as well. You are so right. Asset stripping and personal cash grabbing by gobsmackingky useless and inept SLT is the order of the day. Hate Cameron, hate Gove, hate the Tories. All that privilege and top education most of their lot received....and they’re still thick as.
  6. David Getling

    David Getling Lead commenter

    Ageism is endemic in the UK, despite the fact that the government raised the retirement age, and will no doubt do it again.

    But I imagine those responsible (lawyers) for prosecuting this crime do not believe it is a common occurrence, because there are a goodly number of senile old coots being paid a fortune to act as judges.
  7. Mrsmumbles

    Mrsmumbles Star commenter

    Yep. And yet: “Hey teachers!” trills our deranged and inept government, sounding more and more like Napoleon the pig’s bouncy little minion pigs every day..”Let’s put student mental health welfare lessons into the school curriculum as well! Let’s make you all untrained and possibly lethal social workers and CPNs on the cheap!” Bring it on. Pile it up. Make us sink. Destroy entirely.
  8. peter12171

    peter12171 Star commenter

    Not necessarily experienced though...some of us have come to teaching late. We still have plenty to offer (in terms of life experience it might well be more to offer), yet aren’t given the chances/support because it is expected that we would expect a higher pay scale than weget starting out - or (more often) that we don’t follow the latest fad/technological gadget because we realise something new will come along and replace it in a couple of years.

    A lot of people don’t want to admit it, but ageism is rife in British education.
  9. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    I seriously wonder whether this Government gives a toss about education. Why spend money educating people for non-existent jobs? If the country needs workers, these can always be bought in from abroad (even more cheaply from the Third World, now we are leaving the EU), and then sent back when they are no longer needed. These foreign workers contribute to the economy but can be sent packing before they can draw pensions.

    The Government's handling of education is like improving the RNLI by burning all the lifeboats and sacking their crews.
  10. a1976

    a1976 Established commenter

    But it isn't just the Tories though. Labour was guilty of this as well and they, along with the Scottish Teaching Council (many are SNP members), many Lib Dems, and the Greens are supporting #letthemteach.
    hhhh, stonerose, agathamorse and 2 others like this.
  11. a1976

    a1976 Established commenter

    My relatives have often said, let the people who are having to prop up the corrupt Mps, SLTs in school, charity bosses, etc leave the country (emigrate) and then, those whose taxes are paying for this corruption will be gone and the corrupt people will have no one to prop them up.
    Mrsmumbles likes this.
  12. a1976

    a1976 Established commenter

    No, they don't and Labour never did as well. Remember Ruth Kelly and Every Child Matters. That was just to pit young people against the adults.
    henrypm0 likes this.
  13. catbefriender

    catbefriender Lead commenter

    A few points, it's not about money, it all about age. The top of MS and the first few points of UPS aren't that far apart, and a lot of older teacher I have spoken to WOULD take on a post at beginning to mid main scale, but have not been offered jobs even after stating that on their applications.

    If schools have the option between a 25 year old and a 55 year old, willing to accept the SAME salary, they will most probably choose the 25 year old as they believe they will be getting more value for their money. The younger one is fresh, more energetic, willing to come in on Saturdays, willing to stay until 8pm. It is these kind of assumptions that make schools believe they are getting a better candidate.

    They can see no added value in taking on an older teacher.
    They can not see what else we have to offer and they will only understand when they age themselves:oops:.

    I remember my awesomeness in my 20s, and I knew that it would increase with age. I'm in my 50s now and actually believe I will improve in so many more things in my 60s, 70s and even 80s. I see ageing as an opportunity to learn more things and am actively using the opportunities I have now. I tutor and have more time to explore things that have always interested me. The skillset I have now, I could not have had in my 20s and the skillset I will have in my 60s and 70s etc. will be even better.

    But for some reason, SLTs can ONLY see themselves and their generation getting better with age. They can not see that what they are doing, i.e. stopping others having a teaching career at 45 will eventually impact them as they can not prevent the ageing process.

    Schools are run by younger staff these days who have deep seated insecurities about managing older teachers, in fact teachers old enough to be their parents and would rather avoid doing so. Because of this, they can behave in ways that are unfair to us, by using language to suggest we should know this and by belittling us. I remember an older PGCE student telling me that schools assumed we knew everything already. There is so me inherently ageist about NOT wanting to show an older person how to do things. It is the 121 mentoring, managing of the older teacher that puts a lot of SLTs off.

    There has been many attempts by the DfE to get older teachers back into the classroom, even money. £6,000 was thrust at schools if they took us on and it FAILED. Why? because the caveat was that if the returner was part of the scheme they MUST be employed permanently by the school. The schools were interested in the being paid to give the returner the work experience part, i.e. where they retrain us for re-entry, but it was us permanently staying in their schools that was a big problem for them.

    I can see no solution to the programme as it is not just about schools, but about society in general. People over 50 are currently a quarter of the UK workforce and by 2020, will be a third and are currently the highest in receipt of JSA.

    There will be an economic fall out if we remain underemployed and not earning enough to prop up our pensions. There is an ongoing battle between the DWP, who houses a lot of unemployed teachers, who come and go doing bits of supply work, short term contracts etc. and those tutoring, whose tutoring income is below the threshold and the DfE, eager to give big bucks to universities and other organisations to train more and more new teachers. In fact PGCEs make up a substantial part of the universities' income.

    And remember overseas teachers are not cheap as chips. They are paid mainscale salaries and given up to £5,000 relocation fees.They is also a substantial investment in their intensive training as well, were specialists not only have to get them up to speed on the UK curriculum but also on the legal and cultural aspects of teaching in the UK.

    The overseas teachers are a preference because they are usually under 30 and the irony is, there are plenty of 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations of UK born teachers from the very same overseas' communities that the DfE import in.

    The ignoring of the 335,000 qualified teachers in the UK who are not in schools is becoming a joke. As long as we continue to mention it, we will continue to annoy those who love to peddle the myth.

    Sending those overseas' teachers back home is a good ploy by the DfE and I suspect something supported by the DWP who want more over 50s

    a. back into work, off benefits and contributing MORE into the UK economy
    b. to consider retraining in a new career and
    c. working into retirement, to around 72 to 75.
  14. Mrsmumbles

    Mrsmumbles Star commenter

    I know. The law’s an ass and sporting a hearng aid. He is literally and metaphorically deaf. He’s wearing crocs below that regal legal black batman gown, mark my words!
  15. Mrsmumbles

    Mrsmumbles Star commenter

    Indeed, all my students’ parents are aware of the problem. All you can do is try to get a good tutor in to bridge the gap. I’m starting to realise that my job Tutoring now is being like a charge whatever I can get away with famous cosmetic surgeon as opposed to an exploited and overworked NHS junior doctor in the A&E frontline. I know my stuff, I have my skills, I’ve done my service. Now I just do noses. Lots of noses. Different sizes, needs, shapes and creeds, but essentially noses. I’d like to get back and do something other than noses. But the workplace is bitterly toxic, ageist, sexist and also childish, stupid and petty. I’ll stick with my noses. Anyone for an eleven plus straightening out?
  16. TCSC47

    TCSC47 Star commenter

    A local primary school to us is in some form of special measures. The relevance to this string is that they are not allowed to hire any new teachers who are NQT. I don't know any details further than this.
    stonerose and agathamorse like this.
  17. catbefriender

    catbefriender Lead commenter

    Same situation with several schools near us, the solution, taking on teachers that have just completed induction!

    BTW they got into special measures AFTER they removed the oldies.
  18. phlogiston

    phlogiston Star commenter

    There's a surprise.

    Some of us of course, have found other places to work and don't want to go back.
  19. catbefriender

    catbefriender Lead commenter

    That's the blessing, because we are SO AWESOME and resilient, we can

    learn new skills
    update our existing skills and
    find alternatives avenues of income

    when we believe in ourselves.:)
  20. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    As always, you have hit the nail on the head, @catbefriender. On a personal note, although I will be 63 in September, I am physically fit, on as good a form as ever mentally. I agree with you that my past experience of teaching makes me better equipped to do a good job than I was thirty years ago. Schools, and many other potential employers, see me as unemployable, for the reasons you have stated so succinctly, @catbefriender. Even after being on the scrapheap for six years now, I still find cannot reconcile myself to the probability that I will never work again.

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