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Let them teach

Discussion in 'Education news' started by David Getling, Jul 20, 2018.

  1. install

    install Star commenter

    SadIy, I don't get the impression that mps or uk society cares.

    Some might say Teachers in the uk are not teachers these days and are not regarded as 'teachers' anymore. Sadly, they are childminders to many and behaviour and attendance monitors....there so that uk parents can go to work regardless of exam success .:rolleyes:
  2. catbefriender

    catbefriender Lead commenter

    Wishing you a brilliant escape and hope that you find the perfect job with caring and supportive people.:)
    agathamorse, Catgirl1964 and andrew07 like this.
  3. catbefriender

    catbefriender Lead commenter

    As I mentioned before the TES, unions etc. has an interest in training these overseas teachers. When the overseas teachers are paid up to £5,000 relocation fees to come over here, they are sent to intensive training programme run by DfE funded institutions to get them up to speed. The unions and TES run such programmes.

    UK qualified teachers would not need as long or as intensive a programme. They could easily be incorporated back into the school system via the school's existing CPD.
    agathamorse and JohnJCazorla like this.
  4. SomethingWicked

    SomethingWicked Occasional commenter

    On the topic of older teachers being squeezed out in favour of younger ones:

    If schools can't afford to hire more experienced teachers, I've got a great idea. You'll love it. Here's what we do, step one, we draw comparisons between teachers and nurses (see below). Step two, we realise that no nurse can be paid more than £28k p/a without accepting management responsibility. Step three, we realise that a third of nurses employed currently are over the age of fifty. Step four, scrap UPS and curtail MPS because non-managerial teachers are overpaid and underworked compared to nurses. Step five, congratulations, the system can now afford to hire all the older teachers - you all cost the same as a 27 year old :)

    In all seriousness though, I think we - as a profession - have a bit of a self-perception issue. UPS for non-managerial teaching staff is remarkably over-generous compared to other jobs. To use the NHS analogy, it's like doing no more than a nurse's work and, through long-termism, being promoted up to a doctor's salary. It's true in the police and the army as well - it doesn't matter how old you are, if you want to be paid more, you need to become a manager. If you don't want to join SLT, then you need to accept there will be people half your age earning the same as you. It's not ideal, but it's how every other job works. Thinking of yourself as someone who deserves >£30k p/a for 1.0 FTE teaching hours with no management is why so many older teachers are unemployed - nurses aren't under that delusion and their over-fifties are doing fine finding jobs.

    Both professions require a similar amount of university level training; have a similarly sized population; have weak unions; have community responsibilities that scale linearly with national population; are employed predominantly in the public sector.
  5. andrew07

    andrew07 Occasional commenter

    But what gets me is that experienced teachers like me are leaving because of conditions, ageism, etc. And the TES and unions support this instead instead of campaigning to to solve the problems that are driving and pushing teachers away? Oh, and the beloved and legendary Theo has signed the petition for this campaign as well so I would be very wary about taking advice or listening to him since he obviously is part of the problem.
    schoolsout4summer likes this.
  6. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Star commenter

    Maybe this is the issue that PRP should have addressed - that teachers should be rewarded for experience where that experience improves their performance. But of course PRP doesn't work, partly because it's so difficult to objectively assess a teacher's performance and partly because the system is abused by managers.
    Experience does make us better teachers and should be rewarded. Joining SLT very often takes a good teacher away from the classroom, sadly.
  7. blazer

    blazer Star commenter

    Let's not kid ourselves that UPS teachers are just MP6 teachers on more money. There are many who 'manage' or 'Lead' without being on management or leadership payscales. There are many responsibilities taken on by these teachers. UPS was brought in to keep these experienced teachers in the classroom rather than have them becoming Managers and leaving the classroom.
    tenpast7, agathamorse, Lalad and 2 others like this.
  8. blazer

    blazer Star commenter

    I have emailed my MP. He will reply but I doubt he will do anything. He is a dyed in the wool Tory and thinks Academies are the greatest thing in education, ever!
    andrew07 likes this.
  9. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Sometimes it's a good way of getting bad teachers out of the classroom. We all know that the most important work is done at the chalkface.
  10. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Star commenter

    Exactly - it was a means of rewarding good, experienced teachers for being good classroom teachers - to avoid them having to move into management to earn more money. Whatever thinking drove that (we need good experienced teachers in the classroom) has been abandoned in favour of 'the cheaper the better'.
    agathamorse, JohnJCazorla and blazer like this.
  11. andrew07

    andrew07 Occasional commenter

    I don't think it's just the Tories. If you look, MPs in the Labour, LIb Dem, and SNP parties are supporting this. Best thing to do is get out of education and let it fail. The country is pretty much doomed regardless and not because of Brexit, but because of people just wanting everything now and living beyond their means. It's easier to sit back and watch Corry or football than face up and solve the problems the country is facing.
  12. David Getling

    David Getling Lead commenter

    Absolutely right Vince! To misquote Mr. Shaw: those who can do, those who can't manage. This happens in so many areas. People who are bloody useless at doing the organisation's real work end up as managers. And this is a really big problem, because such people have very little appreciation of what the important work entails, and no empathy for those doing it. In fact it wouldn't be so bad if there was just no empathy, but often there is a seething resentment and jealousy.
    tenpast7 likes this.
  13. R13

    R13 Occasional commenter

    1. I've been a Head for over 20 years and have NEVER chosen a teacher on cost - honestly never. I'm not naïve enough to think that might be general practice but I feel the need to let colleagues know here that for some of us there just aren't enough applicants let alone enough good applicants.
    2. When we the Government have the profession arguing (Especially along lines which can include race and background) you know the real point is being missed. Schools are not funded well enough and that is putting unreasonable pressure on teachers and leaders and causing a recruitment crisis
    blazer and koopatroopa like this.
  14. koopatroopa

    koopatroopa Senior commenter

    We need teachers with appropriate qualifications in schools. I've no doubt some people are forced out of the profession but there are also areas where you see the same vacancy being advertised over and over and it is clear that nobody is applying. If those vacancies can be filled by qualified teachers from overseas that's better than letting them sit vacant, with classes covered by non-specialist, unqualified staff.
  15. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Teaching jobs that stand unfilled usually have arduous specs & unrealistic requirements and are often in schools run by chancers. Certainly, let people from overseas apply for jobs in the UK but it is ridiculous to places teacher on the shortage occupation list.
    agathamorse, blazer and catbefriender like this.
  16. catbefriender

    catbefriender Lead commenter

    If you ever have vacancies in Maths, Science or MFL try contacting the DfE Return to Teaching Programme as they have a means to put out flyers to all their registered teachers, the vacancies that exist in some schools. Loads came through when I was registered on the programme (but not in my neighbourhood) and consider asking your LEA and other local LEA schools, if you are an LEA school or other schools in your MAT for a Return to Teachers event and again, contact the RTT Programme and ask for it to be advertised. You may even be able to get some of their staff to help host the event and support your school in getting the Returner up to date training, that is if you would welcome having most of your vacancies filled with teachers over 50.

    Finding younger teachers to fill the majority of teaching posts is going to be more challenging as more opportunities are opening up in other industries due to Brexit.

    I have a contact for the DfE Return to Teachers Programme for schools. If anyone is interested, please PM me. :)

    Interestingly, whenever I have stated this, not one school has done this, only teachers.:(
  17. andrew07

    andrew07 Occasional commenter

    The same support we receive, nothing more or less. If you move to another country, you know the conditions of your stay and these overseas teachers knew the conditions.
  18. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    I know I have aid this many, many times but I am, supposedly, a teacher of a shortage subject, supposedly much in demand, yet I have been trying to get back into to teaching for nearly six years now. I have been offered jobs but not the salary to go with them. Supply and demand would seem to suggest that I should command at least a modest salary, so obviously my services are of no value. I joined the return to teaching programme last year, and nobody bothered to return many emails I sent out to schools and colleges that were offering training. I have tried again this year with slightly greater success. None of the replies form the schools and colleges to which I have applied are very encouraging, warning me that course were 'heavily oversubscribed' and 'recent classroom experience is a prerequisite to acceptance. This plethora of almost mutually exclusive entrance criteria makes me think this is all smoke a mirrors.
    agathamorse and catbefriender like this.
  19. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    I did write to my MP about this subject nearly two years ago, and I am still waiting for a reply, or even an acknowledgement.
  20. David Getling

    David Getling Lead commenter

    Jolly Rodger, I have absolutely no doubt that what's happening to you is being repeated many, many times the length and breath of the country. The recent experience excuse for not giving you a job is complete nonsense. Has what's taught changed, or the kids changed, since you were in the classroom? No. It's just one of many excuses SLT use to weasel out of employing any teacher who costs more than a pittance.

    The government and schools are perpetrating a massive con on the general public.

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