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KS2 v KS3

Discussion in 'Mathematics' started by dmay34, Jul 1, 2011.

  1. Evening!

    I am writing a dissertation for an MEd and would like to know the view of any Year 7 maths teachers on the following question:

    Do you think year 6 teachers should use KS3 material to extend OR use enrichment activities based on KS2 curriculum for teaching G&T pupils?

    I would really appreciate any thoughts on this matter!


  2. Enrichment activities
  3. DM

    DM New commenter

    Firstly, get your own name.
    Secondly, I strongly disapprove of primary school teachers encroaching upon the KS3 Programme of Study. They are creating problems for their secondary school teachers and are doing their students no favours. Enrichment over acceleration every time.
    Unfortunately I have never taught Year 7 so feel free to disregard my comments.
  4. DeborahCarol

    DeborahCarol New commenter

    Strongly disagree.
    I have taught many G & T children over the years. Some children are ready for KS3 at Year Five or earlier. (One was on B/C grade algebra in Year 4) TWO years of KS2 'enrichment activities'?
    Half of a top set Year 5 I taught achieved high Level 5s in their practice SATS, or, from memory, perhaps it was mid-Level 5 but the test they were given couldn't measure higher. I don't agree that they should spend the whole of Year 6 on 'enrichment' KS2 activities and be denied the opportunity to move on. Some of these kids were champing at the bit to do more advanced maths (having done many 'enrichment activities'!) and were very excited to be able to do so! (Also, several were going for tough maths entrance tests, that definitely needed some KS3 maths!)
    I've left that school now, and hear that the top Year 6 set now do Foundation GCSE and do achieve Cs. Whether or not you agree with that, it cannot be in the interests of bright, enthusiastic students to hold them back because it creates 'problems' for secondary schools.
  5. I come from the primary point of view but would still vote for enrichment over acceleration; of course there may be certain things that may 'come up' during great enrichment activities that mean you introduce certain KS3 concepts but the main aim should be to enrich rather than accelerate. I also feel that this should be considered throughout the primary school as some teachers will tend to accelerate over enrich all the time. G&T pupils, in particular, need the challenge that enrichment activities offer; this is important for their self-efficacy.
    Good luck with your dissertation.
  6. Just send to us with the ablity to:
    <ol>[*]Mulitply, divide, add and subtract in their heads (and on paper for harder problems)[*]Sit in a seat without having to have playtime every lesson or blurt out things that only matter to them</ol>Thats all I want them to do at KS2 and we will do the rest
  7. Well isn't that stupid. What use is a GCSE grade C going to be to such an able
    Student. Acceleration is only meaningful IMO if there is something
    Meaningful to do "next". Rather than getting them to do an exam leading to a qualification that is obviously beneath them, why not enrich there experience to get them seeing Maths as a holistic subject rather than something
    you do to pass exams :(
  8. DM

    DM New commenter

    My blood is literally boiling.
  9. PaulDG

    PaulDG Occasional commenter

    With you 100%!
  10. PaulDG

    PaulDG Occasional commenter

    It's going to be more use than not having it.
    So that we can bore them stupid when they get to secondary school? So that we can follow school policies that mean all of year 7 is taught "mixed ability" which means we spend all the lessons trying to cope with kids who can barely count in the same class as these kids and we hope we can "motive" them by asking them to add up 3 numbers and get the answer instead of the 2 single digits we're giving the rest of the class?
    Or allow them to "re-inforce their learning" by paring them with the ones who can't count and to have to try to explain decimals to them?
    Seems to me that if they get to secondary school with C GCSEs their parents will have the same sort of ammunition that can be deployed against [and yes, that's what it is] the system the secondary will want to deliver. And like those who arrive with files full of SEN documentation will be able to demand something appropriate.
    If they don't have that piece of paper that says "your normal scheme of work is not right for me", how will the new school actually deal with them? They'll come in with data that says "high level 5" (as that's the most you can get from KS2...) and so the secondary can ignore them for 3 years and lookie!! They achieved L7 at the end of yr 9. Who-ho! Job done! Target met and we can keep pouring resourse into those critical [for our stats] C/D borderlines..
    But come in with paper that says "I've already achieved what you expect an average yr11 to achieve, now what are you going to do for me", and, well, what are we going to do with them?
    It's not the child's fault they're bright.

  11. Then you were doing the wrong enrichment activities

    Bright kids like to be challenged and there are plenty of investigations that could be done with almost zero teacher input that require no more maths than KS2 level and would develop their mathematical thinking

    By pushing KS3 maths instead of this you are the one guilty of holding them back and stifling their mathematical thinking
  12. For who? The primary school or the child?
    What happens then to the primary schools that hot house students to pass a GCSE exam, but do not approach problem solving skills, or the enrichment that starts to build bridges between the topic areas

    To your point about KS2 data only being able to report High 5, then clearly you need to get a better primary liason going on. We regularly hold meetings with our feeder primaries and subject leaders to identify high fliers and those requiring additional assistance, and we timetable Maths, English, Science, Art and Tech teachers to actually teach in primary once a fortnight to meet next years new starters and begin to underdstand their needs.

    Education is NOT as Mr Gove and the previous labour govt think about
    Passing exams - primary schools doing GCSE's flies in the face of that.
  13. Apologies
    My paragraphs have gone :(
  14. waikatoriv

    waikatoriv New commenter

    My view is neutral at the moment about enrichment versus teaching KS3 because I haven't really thought about it in depth and there are pros and cons for both choices. HOWEVER I agree with others here about number work. I would guess that the majority of students, including GandT students, start secondary school not knowing all of their times tables and are not fully confident in all the four number operations. I have seen this over many years and specifically in a Year 7 set 1 maths class I taught last year, all of whom had KS2 level 5s, and about half couldnt do division . That's set 1. Probably worse in other sets. I now tutor year 7's on the one to one scheme (I have tutored more than 100 now). Not one knows all their timestables or can do all four number operations confidently without a calculator. I'm teaching them this. One exception was a boy who had been home schooled in KS2. So that would be my first priority for Year 6. Before anything else check they can do number work and if they can't teach it . Then decide what to do next!
  15. DM

    DM New commenter

  16. Many primary schools would be unable on their own to teach KS3 as many do not have the skills/knowledge/resources/time/staff. So could be down to local 2ndary school helping out, which it could argued should be done.
    some primary schools have done it successfully but many have actually caused more problems or just not done it justice.
  17. bigkid

    bigkid New commenter

    For me separating maths into different key stages as if the maths contained therein are separate, sensible, coherent constructs is very strange indeed.
    I'd be content if I received year 7 pupils capable of dealing with having to think for more than a fraction of a second before getting the answer.

  18. oops- only just seen this - i am a ks2 gat course provider, with particular reference to maths
    i do do some ks3 stuff - but (and i know some of you get [​IMG] about it, and i see why) but - it isn't in a spirit of acceleration - honest - it's:
    1.'basics before you go' - that's algebra - sorry chaps, but i have tutored too many ks3 kids who haven't understood a letter of their algebra teaching at ks3 - often it's not the teacher but the course framework (described in an ma paper as 'having gone from tragedy to farce')
    2.bits that come under other topics - so pythagoras when we do greek maths - that's fun to know ahead and doesn't leave them blase in too many lessons
    3. the weird and wonderful - please don't all get at me again wrt e to the i pi - not all mathematical geniuses are going to do a levels, and it can be fun to do such stuff in an informal setting where you can play and muck around and ask possibly daft questions
    4. when they've flaming asked me ( eg do all triangles have 180deg internal angles)
    but mostly i do investigations as resource finder mentioned, - the only work is knowing what you're talking about so you can answer q's ideally socratically to keep the investigation going, strategy and visual perception etc games as a reward for their extra work, maths history (cos geeks love esoteric knowledge) and the weird and the winderful (ditto - and to show them what a big, wide world of maths is out there)
    and yes, i also do a lot of basics especially arithmetic with them - and lots of times tables, basic practise, different learning methods and use of - but i just cannot force some of them to put the grunt work in outside school (i only see them once a week) - this is one reason i so value hard work above iq - so deep apols to their ks3 teachers
    what i never, never do - and indeed put a stop to at the school i work in - is this gcse at 11 thing
    1. what use is a c to a child - it's kudos for the school and the parents maybe, but this child will walk an a* at 15/16, so why get a c now?
    2. if they continue to accelerate, they will probably go one of 2 ways - either to uni at a ridiculously early age (eg ruth lawrence - and read up how she would never do that to her own kids) or they've been there, done that once they've got maths a level and end up doing something else entirely (now - i'm out of date on this one - so if there are more recent studies that say different, please tell me - dm - sorry if it's in your link, as it was tony g i last talked to about it, but i need to go out in 15mins and wanted to get my 3 ha'pence worth in now)

  19. DM

    DM New commenter

    Because of this ...
  20. Our job as teachers (where KS1,2,3,4 or 5 or beyond) is to help students develop mathematically to their maximum.

    Enrichment activities are not something that should be introduced just for the more able students in the classroom when they have finished the work - they should be a fundamental entitlement to all students in the class. They are part of the wider mathematical development process.

    Students at primary shouldn't be accelerated for the aim of being accelerated but they should study work that is genuinely appropriate for their ability at that stage of their development - irrespective of what KS scheme of work that derives from.

    The fact that having such a student in our year 7 classes makes it much more difficult for us as secondary school teachers is nowhere near an appropriate reason to hold back a students development. It's our job as professionals to cope with that as best we can for the benefit of the student.

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