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Isn't it time to dumb down grammar schools to make them more like Bog Standard schools?

Discussion in 'Education news' started by binaryhex, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. binaryhex

    binaryhex Lead commenter

    The grammar school debate has been dragging on for decades. Let's make all grammar schools 80% for Pupil Premium pupils only, and the ones that would have gone can either go to a private schools or the local sink school.
  2. Jamvic

    Jamvic Senior commenter

  3. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    What a silly and rather spiteful idea. Did you attempt the 11+ and fail?;)
  4. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    It seems silly. There seems to be some kind of idea that it's the school, not the kids, that make a grammar school a grammar school.
    peter12171, Jamvic and colpee like this.
  5. Bobbbs

    Bobbbs Occasional commenter

    I do love seeing far left ideologies destroying institutions which greatly contribute to society.

    'What? Someone is doing better because of their merit? Down with that!'
    peter12171 and agathamorse like this.
  6. peter12171

    peter12171 Lead commenter

    Maybe instead of having grammars and secondary moderns on two sites we should put them onto one site and stream/set students as soon as possible according to their abilities within the one school. Let's call it comprehensivisation...
  7. Bobbbs

    Bobbbs Occasional commenter

    Ah yes, "comprehensive" is a nice sounding word.

    Tell me, how is that going? I'm sure that, because of the excellent comprehensive system, Special Needs schools haven't shut down. Or alternative provision sites. No, no, no. I mean, it's not like, last year, the Government had to reallocate over £200 million to local councils to provide for Special needs students due to years of cut backs from special needs schools and AP units leading to rising numbers of students being turned away and choosing to home school instead of go to said local comprehensive. /s

    One size doesn't fit all in education. Some benefit from an amazing melting pot, some from a focused environment, some from a nurturing and safe one. Some need to learn about Chaucer and the Sciences, some need to learn how to make sure a line is plumb.

    Comprehensive schools sound fair, but, like most things, how it sounds and how it is are not congruent. A specialist unit for education is needed, much like specialisms exist in all other professions.
  8. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    The last major period of comprehensivisation (when Maggie T was Education Secretary!) cost billions....where would that money come from if needed today?

    Probably the education budget;)
    agathamorse likes this.
  9. peter12171

    peter12171 Lead commenter

    I totally agree. Sometimes the written word on the internet doesn’t come across well, but my post was rather tongue in cheek.
    agathamorse likes this.
  10. Bobbbs

    Bobbbs Occasional commenter

    Ah, fair enough. Bring back the interrobang! (‽)
    agathamorse likes this.
  11. koopatroopa

    koopatroopa Senior commenter

    I think the number of people who need to learn about Chaucer is very small. Perhaps we should be thinking of education as something a little more than simply what people need to know.
    JL48 likes this.
  12. Bobbbs

    Bobbbs Occasional commenter

    Ideally, we'd all be classically educated. We'd have children have an appreciation for the communal aspects of Florentine architecture. We'd have children well versed in history and literature, music and science.

    Practically, we have to give them the tools necessary to live productive and secure lives. We have to equip them to be able to compete in the wider world.

    Idealism is just that, an ideology. And I'd rather give children the practical tools they need to lead happy lives than give them my idealized vision of education.

    Perhaps we should be thinking of education as precisely that; what people need to know in order to succeed in life. Not what we feel they need to know due to our ideological beliefs.
  13. koopatroopa

    koopatroopa Senior commenter

    Chaucer doesn't seem a terribly practical tool to lead a happy life but you chose that as a need for some children.

    Why is your vision of giving children practical tools to lead happy lives not an idealised vision of education?
    agathamorse likes this.
  14. emerald52

    emerald52 Star commenter

    The academic research shows that grammar schools make no difference to clever kids. They get just as good results in comps. However the difference is the others who do much better . Hence the poor overall outcomes of selective areas like Kent.
    slstrong123, agathamorse and install like this.
  15. install

    install Star commenter

    Grammar schools standards....mmmmm They are no more or less effective than other schools.

    They do alot of damage though to communities and students that are not allowed to go in :(
    vannie likes this.
  16. vannie

    vannie Star commenter

    What? Someone is doing better because they live in a nice area and their parents could afford a tutor for the whole of Year 5 and Year 6? What an excellent idea! Seems totally fair.
    agathamorse likes this.
  17. vannie

    vannie Star commenter

  18. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    As I've said before, getting a tutor is not a panacea to the problems of passing the 11+. VR & Non-VR exams really can't be coached.
    agathamorse likes this.
  19. binaryhex

    binaryhex Lead commenter

    “VR & Non-VR exams really can't be coached.”

    As someone who has written these kinds of tests for 11+ tests and currently tutor students to pass them, I beg to disagree. These tests are made up of individual question types, which are very predictable. Tutors typically practise these with the children of parents who can afford tutors. There are only so many ways you can construct each type of question, and tutors discuss these with students, what look out for, for the red herrings etc etc etc. Poor students don’t get this advantage. I’ve also seen the result as a Grammar school teacher of many years;a significant minority arriving at a Grammar school every year who are clearly not very bright, with coded primary school comments coming along with their notes saying they were ‘pleasantly surprised’ when they passed the 11+ and then these students struggle but do okay because they are in an environment with a good work ethic, where behaviour is much less of an issue by miles than the local sink school, where there are usually qualified excellent teachers in place rather than endless supply cover supervisors with a history GCSE teaching maths and where the funding is good.

    And the poorer very bright students didn’t get a look in. They get dumped in the local academy and have to do battle to learn with semi-mmoorroonnss closer to chimps than humans in intelligence, behaviour and outlook, taught by so so teachers in some subjects in poorly resourced schools with a Head on over a hundred grand a year.

    There is now a trend for a few grammars to reserve a few places for PP children, 5 or 10%. We all be very grateful to eeeeee, sir (touches forlock).
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  20. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    If you make a living from tutoring these tests, l can see why you would say this.;)

    But my experience (as a teacher and a parent) is different. Books of practice papers are easily available for a few pounds and able pupils even from poorer families can practice the question types for the price of a pack of cigarettes.
    peter12171 and agathamorse like this.

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