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Is Trevor Phillips correct that Muslins can't integrate?

Discussion in 'Personal' started by FrankWolley, Jan 27, 2016.

  1. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

  2. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    OK - l've seen it. :oops:

    Comes of writing on a small phone screen! Huge embarrassment, obviously!

    But the issue is an important one, perhaps the most important of the age.
     
  3. Didactylos4

    Didactylos4 Star commenter

    Depends on who the "us" is I guess.
    They seem, in my personal experience, to integrate as well as almost any other group I can think of
     
  4. Didactylos4

    Didactylos4 Star commenter

    It happens :)
     
  5. Annarosa1

    Annarosa1 Occasional commenter

    Yes and No to Frank's questions. Does Phillips still have some multi-cultural earner going on which necessitates his sucking up to Muslims?
     
  6. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

  7. sabrinakat

    sabrinakat Star commenter

    Extremists of any religion refuse to integrate; the rest do. This generation's scary monster is Muslim; previous ones include Russians/Communist; Italians, Jews etc.

    As many know, I teach Classics - in the GSCE Sources (literature and other primary sources), there is an funerary inscription late 3rd century AD where a woman was fearful of/hated the Jews...

    Prejudice, intolerance and hatred is centuries old.....
     
    Burndenpark likes this.
  8. NoseyMatronType

    NoseyMatronType Star commenter

    As far as I know, Steven Fish's book Are Muslims Distinctive? could be the best book on this issue. I have it but it will be much later in the year before I get around to reading it.

    There's a very detailed review here:

    http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~akuru/docs/Are_Muslims_Distinctive.pdf

    As far as the UK is concerned Innes Bowen's Medina in Birmingham, Najaf in Brent: Inside British Islam
    is an absorbing and informative read.
     
  9. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    How is it disrespectful to ask or expect long term visitors or immigrants to accept and assimilate our values? If I go to any country with differing values then I show that country respect by abiding by its norms and laws. If I do not, I am the one being disrespectful. He has this the wrong way around.
     
    lexus300 and Erin_Rhys like this.
  10. TonyGT

    TonyGT Established commenter

    Go to any place popular with British expats and you'll see the same. Brits living side-by-side with Brits. Of course people are going to congregate with those who share their values, interests and experiences.
     
  11. NoseyMatronType

    NoseyMatronType Star commenter

    Too right!

    That's why, after I went to live in Japan, in addition to very quickly mastering the art of using o-hashi and removing my shoes at the genkan, it wasn't long before - adopting the practice of many Japanese Prime Ministers in my efforts to integrate - I was off worshipping at the Yasukuni Shrine, where the souls of all the Class A war criminals are said to reside.

    Arun Kundnani in his book The Muslims Are Coming!, has this to say:

    'To be classed as moderate [and presumably therefore reasonably integrated], Muslims must forget what they know about Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan, and instead align themselves with the fantasies of the war on terror; they are expected to constrain their religion to the private sphere but also to speak out publicly against extremists' misinterpretations of Islam; they are supposed to see themselves as liberal individuals but also declare an allegiance to the national collective;they are meant to put their capacity for reason above blind faith but not let it lead to criticism of the West; and they have to publicly condemn using violence to achieve political ends - except when their own governments do so.'
     
  12. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter


    If I went to live in a dry Muslim country, should I:

    A) follow the laws and customs, and abstain from drinking alcohol; or
    B) Insist that this country changes its way of life so I (& anyone like me) can drink as much alcohol whenever & wherever I like?
     
  13. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    I think he has a point in that we shouldn't see "integration" as a continuation of colonisation where adopting the forms and manners of the Empire was seen as civilisation. He's wrong in painting both Muslim communities as some kind of coherent, identical mass. He does the same with non-Muslim communities and really there's no "us" for for "them" to become more like.
    Although I suspect the whole text of what he said is possibly more nuanced that the headlines.
     
  14. MrMedia

    MrMedia Star commenter

    All religion seeks to maintain their purity by dissuading members from operating outside the principles of their faith. Catholics, Judaists, etc.

    However, interpretation of those principles are localised, contextualised and prone to the whimsies of fashion. Dislocated religious communities cling to outdated ideas in the same way that Gove saw that traditional education had to be preserved.

    I find it quite refreshing that one of the biggest issues over integration is the equality of women in society. The head covering is a fashionable thing to do - any historian will show you how its popularity changes. However, [most] religion sees women as inferior - it's been the prevailing opinion for millennia and the idea that women are equal is a very modern one. That one of the clashes over integration is the status of women would gladden the heart of those early pioneer feminists. Mind you, we can't really talk until we sort that front bench out...
     
    Burndenpark likes this.
  15. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    Except that the concern with the status of women is merely a fight over who gets to control them - what they wear and how they speak.
     
    Burndenpark and Vince_Ulam like this.
  16. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    'Values' have here become a catch-all for everything from politics to attire and so are a fig leaf for racism.
     
  17. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    It's sad to see those same men who argue that all women from a community in which some they claim dress a certain way because of male domination then continue to argue that all that community's women should be proscribed from dressing in that certain way. They do this without a hint of irony.
     
  18. magic surf bus

    magic surf bus Star commenter

    We live in a country where religious faith, for the most part, doesn't significantly determine our civil law.

    The Church of England doesn't officially sanction same sex marriage - tough titty Church of England, it's available in civil law. You can enter into a civil partnership here without a bunch of rabid Church of England zealots abducting you and pushing you off a tall building.

    You are free to privately hold whatever faith you wish, but wherever it clashes with civil law in our system the law wins.

    Successful integration for those of any faith arriving from abroad is surely about recognising and accepting that basic principle. Either accept it or go somewhere else more suited to your world view.

    To my mind the rest is just detail, and those of any faith should be able to worship as they please.
     
  19. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    I'm not like 'us' i.e. you.
     
    Scintillant likes this.
  20. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35353310

    This is what the Finns are doing. I approve.

    Johanna turns her attention to homosexuality and the Iraqi men on the back row - it's always the back row - begin to giggle and snigger.


    It might seem like a bit of a pantomime, but reception centres in Finland take these voluntary manners and culture classes extremely seriously. If men arriving from very different and conservative cultures are not immediately made aware that Finland has its own set of customs and rules which must be respected, then they will never integrate, warns Johanna.
     

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