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Is this place too 'woke'?

Discussion in 'Personal' started by Mr_Ed, Jan 21, 2020.

  1. Mr_Ed

    Mr_Ed Established commenter

    Jesmond12 and alex_teccy like this.
  2. Aquamarina1234

    Aquamarina1234 Star commenter

    Your "woke" is someone else's summat else.
    My able-bodied mentally-sound white unmarried heterosexual solvent graduate childless son's wondering when he's going to catch a break.
  3. colacao17

    colacao17 Occasional commenter

    One of those threads you could see coming, and could predict that it would come from one of about half a dozen posters.
  4. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    You think that's bad?

    No mention of Manchester : https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...s/paedophile-grooming-gang-left-roam-17562300

    No mention of Rotherham : https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tml?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490

    No mention of the 19000 : https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nearly-19-000-children-sexually-232431652.html

    Been following the Laurence Fox stuff on twitter... no point discussing it here.
  5. colpee

    colpee Star commenter

    So how is 'woke' being defined today?
    lexus300, foxtail3 and ajrowing like this.
  6. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    The static is extraordinary. It's a real "does not compute" moment.
    But there's another variable, TES forums are a bit of a pastime, perhaps the grooming scandle is a bit too grim? It's not in any case, a conversation acolytes of insterectionality are capable of having.
    There's also equalities legislation that controls what people can say and think , even if this is an anonymous forum.
  7. NoseyMatronType

    NoseyMatronType Star commenter

    Recalling those school protests in Birmingham, the late John Boswell's discussion of Moorish Spain is worth briefly quoting:

    'Although the Qur'an and early religious writings of Islam display mildly negative attitudes towards homosexuality, Islamic society has generally ignored these deprecations, and most Muslim cultures have treated homosexuality with indifference, if not admiration.

    Almost without exception, the classic works of Arabic poetry and prose, from Abu Nuwas to the Thousand and One Nights, treat gay people and their sexuality with respect or casual acceptance...The Arabic language contains a huge vocabulary of gay erotic terminology...Erotic address by one male to another is the standard convention of Arabic love poetry; even poems really written to or for women use male pronouns and metaphors of male beauty: it is not uncommon to find poetry addressed to a female in which the object of the poet's affections is praised for 'a dark mustache over pearly white teeth', or the 'first downy beard over damask skin'. Poems about the physical allure of a young man's first beard constitute an entire genre of Arabic poetry...'

    Boswell's thesis is that Christendom was tolerant of homosexuality too, up until I think it was the 14th Century. This was partly to do with the fact that quite a few of the more prominent church fathers were gay or bisexual themselves.


    This image, of the 7th century saints Sergius and Bacchus, was considered by Boswell to be a depiction of an example of an early Christian same-sex union. His research (set out in a companion book that I haven't got around to yet) turned up liturgies for same-sex ceremonies that included communion, holy invocations and kissing to signify union.

    Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality was published in 1980.

    It seems to me that 40 years further on, there are a lot of Muslims and Christians out there (I recall reading about one Catholic organisation that has expressed support for the protesters) who are seriously in need of some remedial education in order to get more up to speed about the history and contours of their own faith traditions.
  8. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    You don't know? We've just had an example of it
    Thing is NMT the protests are presented to us as an anti-gay thing but that's not the main objetion of the parents. They are more opposed to the teaching gender-optionalism to younger kids, because it's an assault on their identity. That's the part you don't here about, There are no protests outside secondary schools, for example.
  9. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter


    I talked about Telford and ... even I felt I was sullying the place by discussing it... that's why I didn't start a thread about Manchester or Rotherham. I could have sure... but it'd be depressing...
  10. MAGAorMIGA

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    What's to stop any poster starting threads on any or all of the topics raised? Nothing. As for this new terminology of "woke", "SJW" etc in my opinion there's a new nastiness around, a kickback against good manners and reasonableness in which people feel free to be as offensive as they like, and anyone who dislikes it is "woke", "crying liberal tears" or a "SJW" (as though wanting a better, fairer world is some kind of crime). Unfortunately there's no doubt that these attitudes are infecting children, and I see this new aggressiveness appearing in students and in their dealings with each other in class.
    lh13, Orkrider2, Lidnod and 4 others like this.
  11. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    Oh calm down dear.
  12. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    Look at how posters get here get their panties in a twist over something like fake pictures of kids in cages at the US borders, or the Calaise camp.
    There are definately some values that seem to be more prevelant here, than others.
    Fear of inequality;
    Fear of biological determinism;
    Social roles in determining behaviour;
  13. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    That's really not the problem.
    It's progressives who insist that their values are correct and non-negotiable. Then they're shocked when people push back on them and resort to the abuse of power to punish wrong views.
    That's exactly what happening with Laurence Fox when he refuted Rachel Boyles blood slur, "white privledge".
    Would you be willing to stand in front of a class of white working class boys in a depressed part of the country and tell them they "have" white privilege? Would wou discriminate on that basis?
  14. NoseyMatronType

    NoseyMatronType Star commenter

    That's something that possibly has a wider remit.

    Identity politics seems to me to have become increasingly foregrounded in recent times, as noted by Francis Fukuyama:

    'The left has focused less on broad economic equality and more on promoting the interests of a wide variety of groups perceived as being marginalized - blacks, immigrants, women, Hispanics, the LGBT community, refugees and the like'.

    In doing so, they have left themselves open to accusations of 'wokeness' where this emphasis is deemed to have gone too far.

    'The right meanwhile, is redefining itself as patriots who seek to protect traditional national identity, an identity that is explicitly connected to race, ethnicity or religion'.

    As far as the 'white privilege' thing is concerned, I first encountered this in relation to the controversy surrounding the US philosopher George Yancy, as discussed here:


    I subsequently imported his book but haven't got around to it yet.

    Personally, I find this whole business thoroughly depressing, so that might not be any time soon.
    MAGAorMIGA and alex_teccy like this.
  15. Morninglover

    Morninglover Lead commenter

    Laurence Fox went to Harrow and RADA, and comes from one of the most distinguished acting dynasties in the UK.

    If he doesn't have a privileged background, who does? Oh, and he's white too. So two types of advantage.
    LiamD, MAGAorMIGA, Lidnod and 2 others like this.
  16. NoseyMatronType

    NoseyMatronType Star commenter

    Just as an aside, 'wokeness' is at the heart of Buddhist philosophy.

    For example, the term 'Buddha' means 'awakened one', someone who has discovered that reality is inherently transient and ephemeral, endlessly morphing and unstable.

    As one Zen teacher put it, 'Life is like stepping into a boat that is about to sail out to sea and sink'.

    Looking into the business of how to live well with uncertainty and change, with a situation where there is nothing to hang on to (including consoling metaphysical beliefs about an afterlife or God), seems to me to be a far better way to spend time than indulging in distracting polemics.
  17. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    If if what Francis Fukuyama was describing was all that was happening, I wouldn't have a problem. But it's not.
    We're being expected to allow the wholesale restructuring of societal values and institutions along lines of intersectionallity and collective guilt.
    Our importance and success as a society is predicated on individual responsiblity and competence. Phrases and concepts such as "white privilege" displace that with collective guilt and collective punishement and replace privilege based on competency with privilege based on identity.

    I'm not arguing that racism does not exist, as your link demonstrated, but that is not the same as saying that hierachies in the west are based on racism, which they are not.
  18. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    It's a word that certainly triggers some people here.

    A bit like "PC" used to do

    We now frown on homophobic, sexist and racist attitudes and language.

    This will be similar. It's just progress.
    ilovesooty and moonpenny like this.
  19. NoseyMatronType

    NoseyMatronType Star commenter

    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
  20. catmother

    catmother Star commenter

    Indeed. And now the DM readers have apparently found a new hero in Mr Fox. Looks as if he's about to become the latest rent a comment go to man. He also seems to dislike a scene in 1917 because it features an Indian soldier and that's "woke" too.

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