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Is it time to clock teachers’ working hours?

Discussion in 'Education news' started by TES_Rosaline, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. Drdad

    Drdad New commenter

    Exactly. Teachers complain about the hours they work but are complicit in the system that generates those hours. We are not martyrs. We are entitled to lives: we need to claim them.
    agathamorse likes this.
  2. mrajlong

    mrajlong Established commenter

    If our true job descriptions were given and the amount of work we are expected to do unpaid was publicised, no-one, except for the naive, would see teaching as an attractive occupation sadly.

    I don't know a single teacher who doesn't hate the teaching recruitment adverts and the false impression they give.
    slingshotsally and agathamorse like this.
  3. tenpast7

    tenpast7 Occasional commenter

    I think that most classroom teachers are willing to do planning, lesson preparation and marking to help their pupils progress.
    The problem is having to carry out new initiatives, pointless data collection, and having to work in a culture of fear.
    Compassman, Mr_Frosty and agathamorse like this.
  4. install

    install Star commenter

    It seems that teachers who have 'paid' for their qualifications, then 'paid' again to also get trained rightly expect ' teacher pay' to mean somehing significant, meaningful and valuable. Afterall, it cost a lot of money and time to become a teacher.

    But then earning 'less pay' then what it cost overall to become a 'paid teacher' seems a little unfair - and a possibly a matter of double standards.
  5. Catgirl1964

    Catgirl1964 Occasional commenter

    I object to the insinuation that TAs are low grade staff. That is very insulting. Do you not realise that TAs are hourly paid, pro rata and that our remit is to support students' learning? We are not admin staff and, if we spent our six or so paid hours a day doing photocopying and trimming, we would not be supporting the most intellectually challenged and often the worst behaved students in lesson time i.e. Your classes. I remember years ago when '25 tasks teachers need not do' was implemented. Reprographics and other technicians did tasks such as photocopying and displays. However, it is grossly unfair to now expect TAs to do these tasks. I did not become a TA to spend time doing teachers' admin tasks. You cannot blame TAs for the current underfunding situation whereby technicians who once did these tasks are not being replaced as they leave.
    JohnJCazorla likes this.
  6. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    We have always done this but in ways that were useful to us. I planned lessons for decades before I had to write down every syllable I was going to use during the class, on a six-page PL pro forma. What gobbles huge amounts of time is not so much doing the essentials but having to produce layers of evidence that we have done so..
  7. Drdad

    Drdad New commenter

    Absolutely. Planning has become a much-abused word, with no distinction between essential planning, needed to deliver a lesson, and 'planning,' carried out for the benefit only of managers and observers. Someone should compile a dictionary of educational Newspeak; I nominate 'supportive' as another entry.
  8. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    Exactly, @Drdad. Planning that is useful to the teacher is one thing, while 'planning' to provide evidence of this planning is something else..
    Peace11 and install like this.
  9. Whiskas

    Whiskas New commenter

    Interesting thread. I am an old hand and know which corners I can cut without the effect impacting negatively on the children's learning. As such, on paper I probably do no more than a 47 hour week as a full time class teacher avec TLR. However that doesn't count the sleepless nights, the way that the job never leaves you alone; on holidays I buy resources, come into school to plan and back walls (and so on) and undertake aspects of my TLR that I can't do in term time, as do many of us.

    It also takes me a full week to wind down and become myself again in the longer holidays. In that week I am irritable, hyperactive and usually finish with my long-suffering partner. He's used to it now and it's become a bit of a black joke, but it's still rather horrible.

    What point am I trying to make here? I think it is that this job absolutely takes over every aspect of your life.
    In my life out of school I do a thing (how do I not compromise my anonymity...?) for which, over the years I have become well known among the large group of similar enthusiasts. This involves weekend work, unpaid, doing this thing that I love, to entertain the public. Sadly, over the last two years I've had to cut down how many of these events I do, have had to come home from events early so that I can prepare for school. It is having a negative impact on my enjoyment of (say) chicken wrestling.

    Anyhoo. I have a little piece of expensive gadgetry arriving tomorrow which I can plug onto my ears and which will sort out my sad and low brain. (Alpha stim machine- I can let you know how it goes if you like!)
  10. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    It is not the workload that impacts students' learning that is the problem so much. It is the BS you cannot cut without risking the wrath of the SMT>.
    JohnJCazorla likes this.
  11. install

    install Star commenter

    If teaching hours were clocked up - it really would be a shocker for some.The money judy doesn't seem to add up in some teaching routes also:


    3 years to get a degree = down 30,000 pounds ( and loss of earnings over 3 yrs if a job had been taken up)

    And -
    1 year to get Teacher Qualification = down 9,000 pounds ( plus loss of earnings over 1 more year if a job had been taken up)

    Then -

    Many years teaching ( plus loss of earnings over many years for unpaid Overtime plus loss of earnings if job that paid by the hour had been taken up. Also low increments and no pay mobility in places).

    If only teachers could clock in and out...

    SEBREGIS Senior commenter

    Sorry, but this is part of the problem.

    Am I prepared to mark, prepare and plan to help my students make progress? Absolutely. That's what I'm paid to do. And I'll cheerfully do this between 8.30 and - say - 5.30.

    Frankly, if the government want me to do paperwork and pointless initiative between 8.30 and 5.30 instead - well I think it's stupid but I've taken Gove's shilling and mine is not to reason why.

    But I do not wish to have to do this outside office hours. And I'm sorry - why should I?

    traditional answer is 'to help the students.' I get that but would a garage mechanic do additional work to keep drivers safe? Would a doctor be expected to do a full day and then - you know - swap around a couple of kidneys - for the sake of their patients? No, of course they wouldn't. In what other profession do people go 'you've got a lot of holiday. You should use that to do more work!'

    I resent not being given enough time to do the work that's expected of me, and then being emotionally blackmailed to do more because otherwise 'I'm letting down the pupils.'
  13. install

    install Star commenter

    The best bosses -Take care of their workers and that includes fair pay for hours worked.

    People who get paid by the hour and Overtime to name a few :

    Some CEOs
    Refuse Collectors

    There must be loads more.
  14. Catgirl1964

    Catgirl1964 Occasional commenter

    My daughter is a Corporate Solicitor and does not get paid overtime as she has signed an opt out to the Working Time Directive which limits weekly working hours to 48 over a 12 week average. However, she is paid very well and also receives a yearly bonus which performance related.
    install likes this.
  15. palmtree100

    palmtree100 Lead commenter

    If only!
    What a wonderful world it would be.
  16. install

    install Star commenter

    Thankyou - of course. Yes some jobs have great bonus deals. I like the 'limit' on 'working hours' too. I have a mate who regularly argues for her bonus deal, which can be huge.
  17. drvs

    drvs Star commenter

    I'm the same. Even at report writing time. So far no child has died, failed or had their life chances limited due to my work ethic. Some SLT have been a little stressed by it over the years though :)
    bertiehamster and Catgirl1964 like this.
  18. install

    install Star commenter

    And where does reading and sending emails fit into workload? A full-time teacher will have classes for most of the day in which they are not supposed to check or respond to emails maybe. Then there is after school.clubs, meetings and tons of marking to do to name a few

    Some schools allow many non-urgent emails to go out well beyond 8pm and may not have a policy on this or 'Working from home' advice. Is this all making some teachers feel that they must be available 24/7?
    Peace11 and Catgirl1964 like this.

    SEBREGIS Senior commenter

    Yes, but - why SHOULDN'T it be? Why do we just shrug and go 'that's the job.'

    I mean - we used to send children up chimneys, but stopped doing that because it was unfair and unhealthy. I'm sure lots of people were shrugging their shoulders and going 'well I know it kills the odd urchin, but, you know, that's the job.'
    JohnJCazorla and Catgirl1964 like this.

    SEBREGIS Senior commenter

    You refuse to open or respond to school e-mails outside of directed hours. Your union will back you on this one.
    install and JohnJCazorla like this.

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