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Is bad behaviour out of control in our schools?

Discussion in 'Education news' started by TES_Rosaline, Jun 11, 2018.

  1. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    There is plenty of evidence that zero tolerance policies do not work and are indeed often counterproductive.

    I understand they are seductive to some.

    Many teachers have always thought discipline is a problem. I've taught in a challenging part of the country, including with excluded pupils for several years, and in my experience there has been no change. The loss of experienced teachers however, is a different matter and many younger teachers may now feel unsupported in the workplace if they have behaviour issues. Indeed their management may quite likely lack the experience to deal with such issues competently too. This things do not mean the nature of young people is changing for the worse.
  2. Catgirl1964

    Catgirl1964 Established commenter

    Behaviour IS out of control as it has gradually deteriorated over a number of years. I suggest that it originates from poor parenting and primary schools struggle to get to grips with it so it becomes ingrained in individuals. When the kids move on to secondary school, their bad behaviour and lack of self control have become second nature and they expect to do as they please without reprimand. I amazes me when students seem aghast if pulled up for their behaviour as though they have a right to do as they please without check. Very annoying!
  3. palmtree100

    palmtree100 Lead commenter

    Certainly not. In London I have seen a big improvement.
  4. hammie

    hammie Lead commenter

    regarding paper work, it is high time all these paper slips were abolished. With such as "Show my homework" on line and immediately sent to parent, pupil and other staff, it is perfectly possible to have a simple low cost system that does the job. Sims can do the same job but is a badly programmed "cottage industry" that charges schools a fortune for the most minor changes.
  5. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Star commenter

    When a suggestion to use Classcharts or the like was turned down (too costly at £3000/year which seems to see teachers time as being an extremely cheap resource)

    I offered to write a system in gained time (professional programmer in the past) it was turned down.
    agathamorse, geordiepetal and hammie like this.
  6. the hippo

    the hippo Lead commenter Community helper

    ClassDojo is not too costly because it is free. Maybe it does not do everything that SIMS or Classcharts can do, but the parents seem to like it. Perhaps secondary teachers would think that using ClassDojo is a bit infra dignitatem. Maybe some silly Brits think that ClassDojo must be rubbish since it originated in the States.
  7. maggie m

    maggie m Lead commenter

    But will the parents you really want to communicate with ever look at any sort of electronic communication? We started using "show my homework" a couple of years ago but a significant number of parents still don't sem to know about it or care despite letters, emails, meetings and reminders at parents evening.
    agathamorse and drek like this.
  8. drek

    drek Star commenter

    I think in large secondary challenging schools there needs to be two or three layers of behaviour management.
    The first for low level disrupters at teacher level with detentions and phone calls and rewards.
    The second for repeated low level disrupters which is for those students who do not attend detentions, whose parents are quick to blame the teacher, the school and others, and soon realise that there are no further consequences.....but would turn their behaviour around if taken out of lessons and separated from their audience for those lessons that they disrupt.
    The shortage of staff makes this impossible to manage.
    The third should be much earlier on for those students who are abusive or swear at or persistently speak inappropriately to their peers and teachers
    Again with only one behaviour manager and line managers busy having meetings about perhaps far more important issues this never gets addressed.
    very often it’s the last two groups of students that are placed together in one or two teachers classes or supply per department and those teachers are expected to deliver the same results as others without such disruptive students...
    The reality for these teachers is that right upto the last 5 or 6 weeks of the year they have to deal with all three layers on their own hour after hour, day after day with some of the worst time tabled lessons for example double lessons at the end of the day or just after PE.
    when finally support arrives too late it is for the staff in the guise of performance management ‘support’ where they receive patronising guidance on how to have fun lessons which would apparently cure all ills......and that has worked all these years has it?
    The students return in September to find new staff, usually new behaviour policies starting everybody from scratch and no real consequences for very serious breaches unless it’s a particular teacher on a TLR who can’t be seen to be ‘weak’ so they get help from their line managers or their students are taken out of lesson earlier on in the year.
    It’s very inconsistent but very ably hidden since those that produce the data that guides behaviour policy are those that manage it not those that deliver it.
  9. lantan

    lantan New commenter

    Then, in my humble opinion, you shouldn't be making such simplistic (and patronising, to be honest!) remarks such as these:

  10. nomad

    nomad Star commenter

    Good'un! ;)
    Betterreadthandead likes this.
  11. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Star commenter

    I don't know many parents of school age children who would not read a text, whether they did anything about it is another thing but at least they would have been informed.
  12. hammie

    hammie Lead commenter

    and do we set up a system (or not set it up) because a few won't respond to anything at all. For the intransigent few, at secondary age, the privileged finish time system seems to work well. We have informed you and the teenager, they will be leaving school at the later finishing time today.
    Will probably require a head of year/SLT to run a regular collection for DT service, but that is one of the things they get the extra money for.
    megsie likes this.
  13. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    We used to have the combination of an unwieldy behaviour policy and a shockingly weak management team that just didn't want to know about doing anything about the kids.

    It was awful

    Finally we managed to get rid of these people and for the first time it is being addressed and more importantly thought about.

    But we have such a long way to go to get it right yet.
    agathamorse and hammie like this.
  14. lovejoy_antiques

    lovejoy_antiques Senior commenter

  15. lovejoy_antiques

    lovejoy_antiques Senior commenter

    I used to teach at a prep school down near twickers. Even the most rebellious pupil's such as stinker watts and little shagger watkins could be brought into line if you used a firm authorative tone and made it clear from day one you were not taking any nonsense. Classroom teachers need to stop expecting managers to manage and parent's to parent.
    MarieAnn18, JL48 and Catgirl1964 like this.
  16. bobpite

    bobpite New commenter

    Excellent point Love-Ant. It's because of this quality of classroom discipline that the products of private school are the only ones that can fill our boardrooms, govern us and populate the screen and stage.
    agathamorse likes this.
  17. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Love post #54
    JL48 and hammie like this.
  18. geordiepetal

    geordiepetal New commenter

    And why would it not, when a behaviour system is introduced, classroom behaviour slowly improves, but then staff who are seen to use it the most are pulled up for it by SLT

    So those teachers actively start to avoid using it, to show that they have 'improved' classroom behaviour declines again and the teacher is back where they started.

    But...at least the behaviour point chart can be shown to be going in the right direction at the staff meetings and when OFSTED come...look at how we can demonstrate our 'improving behaviour' !
    MarieAnn18 and ridleyrumpus like this.
  19. Lalex123

    Lalex123 Established commenter

    The paranoid cynic in me thinks that all these failing schools are part of the collateral damage for the tories. They want to keep the money where it belongs and get rid of that social mobility ladder to the top so no one at the bottom can climb it. The amount of policies that have changed and actively discriminate against the poor and vulnerable are too many to count.

    Of course this isn’t true, but sometimes it feels pretty real to me!
    Hijo likes this.
  20. bobpite

    bobpite New commenter

    Oh botheration. I should have learnt by now that my parodies of right wing points of view never work. I agree totally with you Lalex. I've a bit of experience of private schools and the idea that they have anything like the behaviour problems of "real" schools is laughable (I know you are only spoofing Lovejoy, Much better than mine)
    agathamorse and Lalex123 like this.

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