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Inclusivity

Discussion in 'Teaching abroad' started by grdwdgrrrl, Jun 13, 2020.

  1. MsOnline

    MsOnline Occasional commenter

    Back to the topic.

    Has anyone had conversations with or got a sense of how 'local' teachers of colour feel about overseas-recruited teachers being treated more favourably in international schools?

    Career prospect wise and financially?
     
  2. HeroForTheDay

    HeroForTheDay Occasional commenter

    Pretty sure an open forum is a place for discussion and for learning as well as sharing experiences and ideas..? or are we supposed to exist in an echo chamber? The particular poster who I commented towards is clearly an experienced teacher with knowledge, but that doesn't determine that his/her view is gospel. I find the notion of DYOR a lazy way of stating "this is my opinion and you have to disprove it without me providing evidence of where that came from". It is the way people who watch youtube videos about 5G causing cancer, or COVID being a hoax get so much traction because no one is calling out their sources. Maybe its a generational thing that your view isn't to be challenged but accepted in good faith.

    At no point did I deny racism exists. Nor did I state I agreed with OP's statement about racism not existing in the UK. I made no statement on it. I simply agreed that when providing statements, if questioned to provide evidence. I don't really get what is difficult about it.
     
    alex_teccy likes this.
  3. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    I’m not offended, but I am owed an explanation, given that I made no reference to race either implicitly or explicitly.
     
  4. MsOnline

    MsOnline Occasional commenter

    Yes it's an open forum but the classroom dynamic is different - people have shared their own personal experiences of racism on this thread and forum. It is still dismissed. If you're interested, you could scroll back to start of this thread for specific examples of an 'experienced teacher with knowledge'.

    Using your example, if as an adult you voluntarily signed up fod a course /workshop or indeed forum thread it'd probably be because you were open to learning something new. It would be nice to think this forum could be the same. Instead there are those determined to disrupt meaningful discussion.

    It's tiresome to present 'evidence' for it to be ridiculed and denied - btw I see no other form of prejudice and bullying on this forum that this happens with. So to conserve energy people either don't post, feel intimidated to do so or request people to DYOR.

    It is not the role of those on the receiving end of abuse to keep 'proving' their experiences are important or valid.

    You might not find it 'difficult' as you have not experienced that type of abuse yourself , but those who have received it will not feel the same way.

    If you can even empathise with this (especially as you agree racism exists) then hopefully you can rethink your view of DYOR as 'lazy' It's time for those who are interested in being anti-racist to put in some effort themselves otherwise otherwise that could be viewed as 'lazy'

    Finally, the experiences of racism have been dismissed for generations.

    I hope you have some views on the topic of this thread.
     
    cherpat87 and gulfgolf like this.
  5. MsOnline

    MsOnline Occasional commenter

    Back to the topic.

    Has anyone had conversations with or got a sense of how 'local' teachers of colour feel about overseas-recruited teachers being treated more favourably in international schools?

    Career prospect wise and financially?
     
  6. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    In other words you get to select views and opinions that support your own prejudices.

    You’re personal sense of self-righteousness does not entitle you to judge other posters.
     
  7. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    Back to the topic. Explain why my post was racist.
     
  8. Mitochondria1

    Mitochondria1 Occasional commenter

    I take back what I said about the level of discourse being at primary school level, it's more Kindergarten level.
     
  9. gulfgolf

    gulfgolf Established commenter

  10. HeroForTheDay

    HeroForTheDay Occasional commenter

    I read the example, and I empathized with posters predicament. Didn't disclaim racism.

    A public forum is a place to learn something new. Hence why if you post sources, its an opportunity to read new information. It is an opportunity to see things from a new perspective. Or find information you may not have access to.

    Just because something maybe tiresome doesn't mean you stop doing it... I spend plenty of time arguing with people who hold racist or bigoted views in the hope of one day changing their perspective. It's easy to write others off just because they hold different views. The way to make change is empathy and listening, not dismissing someone as racist. *

    Not a claim I made. Believing "survivors of abuse" (for want of a better term) is empowering for the abused but you still need to investigate the accusation.

    In terms of this discussion, one person stated they had negative experiences as per their skin colour and another said they didn't let their skin colour affect them because they chose to "rise above it". It's not difficult for me because I'm not afraid to show my biases either through the sources I provide or the evidence I use. I'm also prepared to defend my positions with the evidence I have. **

    I'll never move away from the DYOR is lazy position because it removes the onus of the claimant to support their statements onto the opponent without context. It also solidifies your own position as the right one because by refusing to allow someone else access to your evidence you remove their ability to understand your perspectives. It is also used by quacks to avoid legitimate criticism of their positions. ergo 5G causes cancer or COVID is a hoax.

    I agree. But is it the main problem in schools or is it a contributing factor? I personally see it as a contributory factor and I'll explain more below

    I absolutely do. But depending on your political leanings, your stance on things like social inequalities and how you solve them may be different to mine. For instance, after being told to DYOR yesterday, I did. Now if I type in a search engine " are UK schools racist", there is plenty of evidence that suggests British schools are overwhelmingly racist and there's a huge racial problem . But if I type in "do british schools fail white working class kids", evidence shows that of all ethnic groups, they're the ones most likely to fail school in comparison to other groups of similar poverty and inequality levels by quite a large margin. (As seen here: https://www.ambition.org.uk/blog/britain-failing-its-white-working-class-boys/, here https://www.bbc.com/news/education-27904204 and elsewhere) whilst some research suggests racism is experienced by many kids but its not just from white students only but from all different ethnic groups (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/001318800363845?journalCode=rere20 - use Sci-hub.tw in order to access the full article) So are UK schools racist towards blacks and Asians or racist towards white working class kids only? Stating things in absolute terms leaves no room for nuance or open discussion. ***

    In my opinion, Class and class inequalities are far larger problems than the issue of race and the wideng of the gap between the rich and the poor is expanding. All poor socioeconomic groups get a crappy deal, be that black, white or Asian and do not have access to the opportunities that middle and higher social class kids get, be that education, job opportunities and the like. By dividing groups into smaller and smaller categories, we ignore the fact that the poorest social classes as a homogeneous group are the ones who get shafted the worst. Does racism on an individual level exist? absolutely. But is it the defining factor? I'm not so sure. I'd much prefer to invest time, effort and money building up all the poorest groups in society rather than focusing on how one group is much worse than the rest. It doesn't matter if you're sweetcorn or a nut if you're both found in a turd.

    *https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/02/22/why-empathy-is-key-dismantling-white-racism/

    **

    *** https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/07/british-education-failure-white-working-class
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020 at 2:39 AM
    alex_teccy likes this.
  11. Mitochondria1

    Mitochondria1 Occasional commenter

    Great effortpost. Nice point to add a reminder that QE following the 2008 financial crisis resulted in the largest transfer of wealth from the poorer in society to the richest, and substantially eroded the middle class. In that time teachers have had a decade of below inflation pay rises, and seen working conditions decline further and further. The COVID crisis has resulted in yet more printing from all of the major central banks, and I would expect the pattern to repeat.
     
  12. Beagles111

    Beagles111 New commenter

    The question has to be asked. Why was this thread not started a long time ago?
     
    grdwdgrrrl likes this.
  13. Karvol

    Karvol Occasional commenter

    I visit a lot of schools around MENA and regularly interview local teachers and staff.

    Edit: this just deleted about 95% of my post....
     
  14. cherpat87

    cherpat87 New commenter

    Well said
     
  15. cherpat87

    cherpat87 New commenter

    Why is it necessary for people who are discussing their experiences or observations of racisim in the workplace, to also provide evidence or research, to those who choose to be ignorant. No one would dare ask people from the LGBTQ to justify and back up the
    discrimination they experience. I am not part of the LGBTQ community however I am very aware of the discrimination they have faced, how so, because I don't just deny it, I take the time to read about it, rather than ask the person to justify and back up their experiences.Why is it that once racism is mentioned we need to provide data and figures for you? why is it such a sensitive issue? Do your research if you are interested, otherwise stay out of the conversation. Do you actually think we are making this up? It is hard to get recruited as a person of colour, and for black people it is even harder. During interviews I have literally been asked how I ended up in the UK, despite it being very clear that I was born and raised in the UK. Furthermore no one is asking to be given a job because of the colour of their skin, I would be horrified if I was offered a role to fill some kind of quota. What we are asking for is to not be denied a job because of the colour of our skin, to be given the same opportunities as our white counterparts. Understandbly we are in the minority and will always be, but why in a school of 200 staff is there not one black person ? do you really think there are non applying ? Or maybe there are just no qualified black teachers?
     
    MsOnline and gulfgolf like this.
  16. cherpat87

    cherpat87 New commenter

    Why did you join this conversation ?
     
    alex_teccy and MsOnline like this.
  17. HeroForTheDay

    HeroForTheDay Occasional commenter

    Because to discuss otherwise without evidence invites an accusation of being racist. And as mentioned, I stated in the previous post that I believed Racism to be part of a much larger class issue. Feel free to tell me why you disagree. That's the point of discussion. I haven't at any point denied racism or discrimination exists, I just don't believe it is the only reason for what is currently happening in the UK or elsewhere.

    See above,

    Because racism is a sensitive topic that is emotionally charged. Also, see above.

    Follow the prevailing narrative or remain outside of the discussion? hardly a way to bring about change and win people over. I did my research, I posted the links I read about it and then I explained why I think the way I do. I also believe if we want to combat racism we have to remove the social inequalities that the "wealth have over the poor" and redistribute it in a fairer manner. Then as a group, non whites will have the same opportunities as whites. Feel free to criticise my position if you disagree.

    For what its worth, I sympathize with your position. There are definitely structural issues that prevent non whites from working abroad. But I suspect the only solution to this issue would be a worldwide walkout of expatriate teachers in protest as I don't believe foreigners have the power to change other cultures otherwise through education alone.
     
    alex_teccy likes this.
  18. MsOnline

    MsOnline Occasional commenter

    I wrote:
    It is not the role of those on the receiving end of abuse to keep 'proving' their experiences are important or valid.

    Reply:
    Not a claim I made. Believing "survivors of abuse" (for want of a better term) is empowering for the abused but you still need to investigate the accusation.

    Why is it your place to decide what is empowering for those who've received the abuse or bullying? I use these words to demonstrate that this is what racism is in line with. Those who've received it get to decide, often based on self-care. By calling it an 'accusation' implies there's doubt that should be disproved and backed up with stats.​

    I wrote:
    It's tiresome to present 'evidence' for it to be ridiculed and denied - btw I see no other form of prejudice and bullying on this forum that this happens with. So to conserve energy people either don't post, feel intimidated to do so or request people to DYOR.

    Reply:
    Just because something maybe tiresome doesn't mean you stop doing it... I spend plenty of time arguing with people who hold racist or bigoted views in the hope of one day changing their perspective. It's easy to write others off just because they hold different views. The way to make change is empathy and listening, not dismissing someone as racist.​

    Again, it's the right of the people receiving
    abuse to decide this. I used the word 'tiresome' but it wasn't strong enough. I acknowledge that you said you've argued with racists but believe me - how YOU feel afterwards isn't the same as those who experience it first hand. Your emotional connection with racism might just be different. And who's been dismissed as racist?​

    A reply:
    Follow the prevailing narrative or remain outside of the discussion? hardly a way to bring about change and win people over. I did my research.

    Who said people want to win you over? It's good you DYOR and acknowledged racism.​

    A reply:
    For what its worth, I sympathize with your position. There are definitely structural issues that prevent non whites from working abroad. But I suspect the only solution to this issue would be a worldwide walkout of expatriate teachers in protest as I don't believe foreigners have the power to changeother cultures otherwise through education alone.

    I don't think that's the only solution. If Black teachers thought this, they would never venture abroad. One of the solutions is having the space to discuss experiences with others, share ideas etc. LIKE THIS THREAD. Good thing is this already happens elsewhere. Asking people to prove validity of their experiences, hinders one of the solutions. How do you feel about that?​

    There are so many other points I could respond to. The class point is strange to me as racism transcends other types of prejudice. You could be a Black billionaire and still experience racism. There are plenty of wealthy Black people and poc who've shared their experiences of direct- even more so recently.

    Finally, there are those who'd hold the view 'I'm sharing my experience of racism and views on inclusion as someone who's experienced it first hand or I empathise. If you'd like to engage and discuss solutions that's fine, unity is useful in bringing about change. However if you're asking me to do extra work, carry out research, back up personal experiences with documentation, telling me how I should react and what's best for me and my feelings I'd question why this would benefit me.'​


    Anti racism is unity and love.​
     
  19. MsOnline

    MsOnline Occasional commenter

    Imagine on a thread about NQT challenges:

    I'm going through a hard time or my teacher friend is. Can we discuss the difficulties and emotions NQTs face during training? Maybe we can help each other.


    Replies:
    -Oh what about plumbers' challenges during their training?

    -Yes doctors too - it's not only teachers who face difficulties.

    -Why's it always about NQTs?

    -Well I think pilots face many more challenges, we should compare them.

    -Let's rank it in order of severity based on what I feel as a non-NQT.

    - Prove it. You've got to prove it. Prove NQTs face difficulties - where are your stats? Links? Research papers?

    -Never met an NQT. What's an NQT? Anyway it doesn't matter because I just wanted to let you know you're wrong and the perceived difficulties are false.

    - Here we go again, get over it.

    -Before you start I don't agree with you, never will.

    - What about how I feel? What about me?

    -Even though I have nothing positive or meaningful to contribute I'm going to add my 2 cents anyway.

    -Even though you're not asking for debate, I'm going to do it anyway.

    _______
    Meanwhile teachers everywhere know exactly what difficulties NQTs may face. Or those with teachers as friends /relatives empathise. As such they start engaging in discussions with a kind and open mind and heart, without telling the NQT how to feel or process their emotions.

    Meanwhile those who never understood the impact of the difficulties are genuinely interested and ask questions to try and understand or get an insight.

    Also meanwhile other NQTs read but decide it best not to share their own experiences on the forum because the challenges faced are already a lot to deal with.

    _________
    Not the best example on many levels but hope someone gets the picture.

    Have a good day.
     
    gulfgolf and cherpat87 like this.
  20. MsOnline

    MsOnline Occasional commenter

    Can you repost it?
     

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