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Incidents that didn?t result in a permanent exclusion

Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by oldandrew, Jan 31, 2007.

  1. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter

    I can?t imagine why positive thoughts on this thread have upset people??.

    How can you get upset when vicious pupils seriously assault other innocent pupils (enough for hospital treatment) and are ?forgiven? by SMT?

    What?s to get upset about pupils being shot in the face and stabbed in the head and allowed back into school?
  2. I do not think that anyone is saying that rules should not be negotiated with the students. What people are being 'negative' about is that when rules are negotiated and set by staff and students they are not carried through by members of staff higher up the chain of command.

    Does anyone make rules saying that punching a teacher is ok and teachers can be assaulted with no consequence. Isn't that what this thread is about?
  3. my sentiments exactly garyconyers.

    I reckon it might work - this Discipline Board. The students in my Year 10 class were completely pro death penalty (and anti abortion - how about that for a combination) - put them in charge and they would be far more effective than many SMT.
  4. Thank you Blue Plantlife fior responding positively to one of my ideas. Of course, I do not have the luxury of seeing things in black and white as your and my Year 10 do, but I've already said all that earlier in this thread.

    I apologise to anyone who finds me patronising. Thank you for the challenge. At the risk of sounding patronising once more, there are people on this site with a lively imagination. No, I am not a DHT of Hissy High and believe me, that type of senior manager would be far too self-satisfied to spend time on here!
  5. "Lively imagination" (this is how I was described aged 7-ish).

    Point illustrated about JES being patronising!

    It was sarcasm dear, sarcasm.....
  6. I am not entirely concerned by who sets the rules it is what happens when they are consisitently abused that concerns me more!
  7. Jamie, what do you mean 'lively imagination.' Are you suggesting that people are making stuff up?

  8. Not for one moment do I believe people are making up stories.Teachers are physically and verbally abused by pupils daily. They also get abused by some senior managers in the form of constant criticism and an undermining of their authority. Hissy seems to have the idea that these psychopathic senior managers come onto this web site and that I am one of these individuals. In my experience abusive senior managers believe that they know all the answers and would feel no need of a site like this. I am also at a loss to know why a psychopathic individual would argue for democratisation of schools because such an individual would have most to lose. Hissy will consider this patronising but his/her argument doesn't stack up!

    Democratisation does not undermine a teacher's authority, it actually adds to it because broadly speaking most teachers and pupils have the same goals. I could recommend reading some of John Holt's books for further illumination on this. For some of you Lee Canter might be a good read. He prodused research suggesting that rules are more likely to be followed when negotiated between the teacher and the pupil.
  9. One interesting aspect would be whether the pupils whose democratic voice was not heard (ie. those whose ideas were not taken on board) would be more or less likely to follow rules.

    Jamie comments on the work of Canter (in post 128) that "rules are more likely to be followed when negotiated between the teacher and the pupil". I would agree with this as a general pilosophy but the dynamics are impossible to implement on an individual basis - 1200 students, each with say 12 teachers - thats 14,400 sets of rules for the school - each with their own sets of consequences/rewards. I can imagine parents going nuts when their child gets an afterschool detention for act X (following their own personal set of agreed rules) whilst another pupil gets only a demerit or whatever for an identical act.

    Now I've deliberatly overplayed this point to the edge (actually well beyond) of silliness to illustrate the point that there are some *collective* rules that must be followed by all students. These rules are often agreed with school councils or whatever (where they exist) or are just imposed.

    99% of students would find these rules totally fair (however they were developed - imposed or by agreement with school council) - basics such as letting people who want to work work; not being rude to people; not being violent to other people. Some students are incapable/unwilling to abide by these simple rules and should not be in mainstream education (as it currently stands) as they are denying others the right to be educated.

    The negociation of core rules on a 1-to-1 basis seems, in my limited experience, to work best in small scale establishments such as PRUs and the like.

    Looking at our school council they would have persitant disrupters of education kicked out of school and left to the parents to make alternative education provision. The school council feels that rules are simple and fair but that teachers / school are not prepared to act fully to protect the needs of the majority.

    My Head asked me last year about how we could add 5% to our A*-C figures - I told him that I could pretty much guarantee at least this improvement but that the methodology would go down like a lead balloon - he eagerly urged me to continue - remove the disruptive students permanently so that all the students who wanted to learn could do so fully as teachers would be spending 90% of time explaining Maths and 10% on minor misbehaviour rather than, at best in some classes, trying to keep the real problem students quiet enough (80%) to give the motivated students half a chance of learning (20%) anything.

    Phew - that was a bit of a ramble but there are some thoughts burried in that anyway!

  10. MathsHoD, have you ever tried negotiation of rules? I started doing this on teaching practice ten years ago in a comprehensive of 1400 students in the North of England in an area of social deprivation and the level of chesion in the students' thinking was greater than you think. Don't knock something until you have tried it!
  11. Jamie - hadn't intended to knock the ideas that you propose and am sorry if my post came across that way.

    What I was trying to point out (guess you can see why it's MathsHOD not EnglishHOD) was that negociation of rules is good but that there remains the fact that some students are unable to meet even the most basic levels of appropriate classroom behaviour (whether set by negociation with the school council or otherwise) and that these students prevent other students from fulfilling their potential. I was trying to get across that there are some rules that just can't be negociated (although you can, of course, let the students raise them).

    You asked a direct question about had I ever negociated rules - I can say I have (with individual classes) but I do struggle to see how rules can be negociated with a large student body of, say, 1200 students if not through the medium of a school council etc. - and the key issue is that the students who are most problematic in terms of behaviour are (normally) those who get nowhere near school councils when it comes to peer elections and therefore may feel disenfranchised by the outcomes.

    I would genuinely be interested for information about how you negociated rules with such a large student body without disenfranchising those students who are most likely to fall foul of the rules agreed yet are least likely to get elected onto the council.

    As I pointed out our school council is far more hardline in thinking than our school (and we exclude instantly for swearing at a teacher - no ifs or buts).
  12. Maybe schools should publish lists showing the Teachers that pupils are allowed to swear at and those they aren't. Maybe this would help curb fixed term exclusions by avoiding the situation whereby a pupil inadvertantly swears at a teacher vested with any real power to sanction!

    I think some schools have a consequence ladder in place when it comes to exclusions.

    It might look something like this....

    C1: Swearing at a TA: Pupil is told not to do it again!

    C2: Swearing at a classroom teacher: A 4 week paper chase for the classroom teacher when the child inevitably does not attend your detentions, followed by nothing being done when it gets to head of year.

    C3: Swearing at a Head of Year: 3 day exclusion.

    C4: Non compliance with a deputy head: 1 week exclusion.

    C5: Crapping on the head's desk: Priceless!
  13. Maths HoD, name a rule that cannot be negotaited, please. By the way, I teach maths too. I contribute to the Maths section from time to time.
  14. Heard two yr 4 boys talking the other day... They had just been told off... They didnt't know I was listening...

    The conversation went along the lines of:

    School is a laugh isn't it...


    You just do what you want and then lie if you get caught...

    Yeah my mate is at high school and he says when you get there you do whatever you want 'cos you are bigger than the teachers then and they are all scared of you..

    That Mr X (deputy) is dead strict though...

    Yeah.. but the Mrs Y (head) dosen't like him when he tells us off ... Just cry and you'll get away with it...

    I reckon when I get to year 6 or year 7 I will be hard enough just to stab him or glass him!! Yeah and all those nerds that want to learn...

    Oh dear, oh dear...

  15. Jamie (re: post 133) - I am clearly struggling to get my point across here - sorry about that. My key issue is how do you negociate consistant rules with a student body of 1300 without using something like a school council which tends to have certain types(well behaved, articulate and motivated) of students elected to it?

    Does negociating through this body disenfranchise those students who most commonly break the rules?

    One quick example - use of phones around school. As a result of negociations with school council we now allow phones to be used on site before the 1st bell, at lunchtime and after school (not between lessons etc.).

    Effect - those students who already obeyed the rules still obey this new one - those students who disobeyed before by getting the phone out in class etc. still do so saying the rule is "stoooopid" even though it was negociated on their behalf by their student council.
  16. Democracies get the leaders they deserve! If you don't like a rule take it up with your Student Council Rep. In the meantime, you will obey it.
  17. 'In the meantime, you will obey it.'

    'No I won't.'

    'Yes you will.'

    'Fu*k you. Who's this ****? Whats he lookin at me for - Oi! What you looking at me for?'

    Cue confontation, or hopefully adeptly diffused escalating situation.

    What happens in your school if they say 'No I won't'?

  18. Post 96.

    The only person who can solve this problem is the Teacher this is happening to.
    Take back the control in a cool calm way.
    If they can't do this, they are in the wrong job.

  19. Blueplanlife,

    They always have a choice if they obey or not.
    Obey the request or take the consequence for not obeying.

    Now if they can see that it gets to you oif they don't obey then to them the pay off of seeing it bother you is worth the consequence.

    So rule number one, be cool if they choose not to obey and always follow through with the consequence.
  20. The response to "I will not do that" depends on the individual teacher. I would say, "Why won't you do that?" "Am I being unreasonable?" "Are you being fair to other students?" "Is there any point in me teaching you if you play with your mobile?" The idea being that you negotiate better behaviour through questioning technique. As the sportsman (last comment) said children have free will. Do this. Do that creates confrontation but an appeal to fairness tends to work.

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