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Incidents that didn?t result in a permanent exclusion

Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by oldandrew, Jan 31, 2007.

  1. thank you blueplantlife!

    i wish you had been smt in my last school- maybe i would never have left the state system if the behaviour i suffered had been actually dealt with appropriately. it's nice to know that there are sensible smt with a spine on the planet!
  2. In answer to the question, would I exclude if a teacher was attacked, yes I would. So would my Headteacher. My concern is for preventative discipline. Try to understand how these problems occur in the first place. Whilst I sympathise with anyone who has been abused (I have experienced it myself) I still stand by what I have said earlier. As for SMT inconsistency, I agree that it is wrong. If you feel strongly about it, contact your union.
  3. we already know how these problems arise- a lack of discipline from a very young age. if a child has never been taught from the youngest of ages what is acceptable and what is not, by the time they reach us at 11-16 there is very little we can do, particularly if there is little or no parental backup. fixed term exclusions only work if the parents are willing to make the child's life a misery whilst on exclusion as opposed to taking the child to centreparcs to 'cheer them up'!!! (can you believe it?!!) As I have said previously and will re-iterate- discipline does not work, not does preventative discipline if the foundations and back up are not there. if the parents are willing for their child to behave like a little vandal, then whatever the school does makes no difference. government legislation re- exclusions are not helping either. this is my point.
  4. Your problem is that you see things in black and white. Try seeing parents not as the problem but as part of the solution.
  5. 1) A teacher was trampled on - neither boy involved is getting permanately exculded.
    2) Staff are repeatedly sworn at and nothing happens to them.

    Personally l think that this 'inclusion' policy has alot to do with it, and the fact that schools get fined. It's PC gone mad! Pupils and parents know their rights and use it, resulting in the power balance being more biased to them.

    I also think that some HT's are weak (like mine)and that there is one rule for you and one rule for SMT's!
  6. Today a year 5 child told a welfare assistant to f*** off. he was told he wouldn't be allowed out at dinners again and would be sent home for lunch if he didn't apologise. He refused and when challenged really lost control...

    Eentually he calmed down and spent time with SMT sat on a bean bag,reading a book, smirking (apparently calming down!!!)

    I mentioned the apology to SMT who frowned at me and told me not to mention it as he may kick off again - laughable!!!

    Clear message to child: If you do something wrong sulk and go wild and it will be forgotten about...

    He is back in school for lunch tomorrow - no apology to welfare or any other adult / child he may have disruted / hurt today...

    We have a behaviour book in class for serious incidents, I was told I was writing too much in mine. The less you write the better SMT perceive your beh. management. So now all teachers write as little as possible to pretend there are no problems in their classes!


    Why, why why do I bother!

    pepper5 likes this.
  7. I got bitten, headbutted, spat at and slapped by one child and frequently punched/kicked and had chairs/scissors thrown at me by another in the samd class. Nothing was done by HT.

    Not as bad as many of the other posts, but these were 5 year olds. School had a real opportunity to shape their behaviour in a positive way but instead let them learn they can get away with this behaviour.
    pepper5 likes this.
  8. Contacting parents???

    Some of you lot live in a different world...

    I rang a parent the other week about a child's consisent negative behaviour...

    Before I even had chance to explain I got the well he is the same at home what do you want me to do about it....

    The next day I spoke to the child who explained that he didn't know I had called his Mum because he had been out playing...

    Later that day the child was in trouble with SMT who threatened to call his parent (unaware of my efforts) He laughed and explained how he was in when I called and that his mother had laughed at me when I had phoned the other day...

    I suppose this is my fault as well!

    Get in the real world folks!
    pepper5 likes this.
  9. 'Your problem is that you see things in black and white. Try seeing parents not as the problem but as part of the solution.'

    you are right. i do see things in black and white. there is acceptable behaviour and there is unacceptable behaviour. in some circumstances, there are, i accept, some mitigating circumstances, but the behaviour of a minority of students is irretrievable given the circumstances.

    re your second point jamie.edward.saunder is that the parents of my wildest students (and i use the word with care), the ones most out of control, ARE the problem. i agree working with parents is the most desirable situation and solution, but when these parents threaten and assault me when i approach them to discuss the way forward and to try to find a solution- that is not going to be productive, either for themselves, me the school and most importantly, the child. the majority of these parents evidently have had very negative experiences of school and interpret any approach as being in some way an attack on themselves and their children personally.

    having said that i have enjoyed some extremely good relationships with parents regarding their children's behaviour, which has paid dividends to their child. this only proves my point.

  10. Before I start with this one, can I make it clear I am not SMT and apologies if 'As a member of SMT, I would hope you would wipe the floor...' sounded like it. I meant that, '...as a member of SMT, I would hope jamie.edward.saunder would wipe the floor... etc etc...

    You say that there is a problem seeing things in black and white. The fact that SMT are now seeing all sorts of different 'grey' areas is the very reason that inconsistency and indiscipline thrive, and one of the reasons this thread exists.

    Children need black and white. They need yes that is ok and no that is not. If children see grey areas in the way discipline is handled in a school, you are asking for trouble IMO. The students do not feel safe within their boundaries. They want, and need, someone more responsible than them to teach and enable them to find their way.

    I have taught nightmare classes that (mostly hehe) behaved for me because I am a stubborn little bug*er and gave them litter duty if they pi$$ed about. I would hound them, find them, wait outside classes for them until they recognised and respected my authority. If they behave I am the funniest, nicest, most nurturing teacher they could hope for. They mess about/ruin others' chances/abuse people, I am really really annoying. Not hostile. Just annoying. And firm. And fair. Its very black and white actually. Then, once they get that, I soften and they turn into little puppies and we have a right laugh the learning can begin. Within the boundaries that I set because I am the adult entrusted with their care in my classroom.

    If I ever get to SMT incidentally, I will see staff as the number one most important resource a school has, and if any child dares undermine that in any way, they will be dealt with severely, and personally, by me. Under no circumstances must staff be (at least to the students) as a problem. Ever been a child playing your mum off your dad? Thats what students do to staff, and that is what SMT actively encourage by not having the courage to stand up for what is so blatantly wrong.

    Come one SMT and HTs. If all of you stand together and say, do you know what, our teachers are the most important thing in our schools and we will not tolerate abuse of them, something would change. Of course it would. But it seems that individual agendas are far more important than justice.

    Jamie, you say that we should start seeing parents as part of the solution. I think Senior Management should start being part of the solution by calling a halt to all these appalling incidents that are mentioned in this thread. There are far too many SMT seeing all this greyness. Rubbish is what I say. If a child has a chaotic home life, the last thing they need is a chaotic and unclear school life.

    Can I just make it clear that although I sound like I had the whole discipline thing down, I was utterly exhausted at times and very despairing. I also sometimes felt totally ineffectual and ****.

    Congratulations if you have got this far. I am ranting. And it is possibly a bit tiresome. ;-)

    pepper5 likes this.
  11. And I think parents of nightmare children should have parenting classes. The parents are the root of the issue. Anyone seen Little Angels. Always the parents who are the problem. Always the parents that are the solution.
    pepper5 likes this.
  12. blueplantlife, I am not surprised that there are times when you feel completely run down.
  13. indeed but it is usually during establishment phase... once they get the message i can chill because they know the score... read bill rogers - he's fab.
  14. I have read Bill Rogers and Lee Canter. I think there is some good advice in Assertive Discipline courses but I wouldn't be too evangelical about any one in particular.
    pepper5 likes this.
  15. evangelical - not really my style, but thanks for the advice.
    pepper5 likes this.
  16. While I agree that parents make a huge difference, I can't accept that schools should be reliant on parents for discipline. Schools shouldn't just inherit the expectations of the students, they should be setting their own.

    Teaching Blog at: http://infet.co.uk/blog/index.php/a/a
    Latest Entry: ?The Most Ridiculous Complaints Against Me Ever Made? 4/3/2007

    pepper5 likes this.
  17. fantastischfish

    fantastischfish Established commenter

    "Permanent exclusion means that students enter a life of crime, ignorance and unemployability."

    Most pupils who are excluded have already entered a life of crime. Assault is a crime you know. You because it happens within the school walls doesn't make it less of a crime. As far as I'm concerned, pupils who behave in such a way, deserve to have a life of unemployabilty. The decision to exclude is not taken lightly. Pupils will have been given countless chances to rectify their attitudes and behaviour. Classroom teachers will have spent more hours helping THOSE children than they ever have with the nice chilren who behave for several reasons: because their are under pressure to churn out results, because if they don't help the disruptive/abusive child, they put themselves in the firing line when that kid kicks off, and finally because they know that if they don't give this child lots of attention, they are gong to have a riot of their hand.

    Quite frankly, I think that children need to learn that if they behave like criminals in the making, or certainly if they commit criminal acts within school, they put their entire future in jeopardy.

    It is only a matter of time until an assault is made on a teacher, but not with eggs, words, or even fist - one day it will be with a knife, or worse a gun. Are we honestly goin to tiptoe around the little treasures until the day this happens?
    pepper5 likes this.
  18. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter

    you are forgetting that many people don't consider activities that would be considered illegal if they occured in the street to be 'crimes' when they occur in school.

    That's the problem.
    pepper5 likes this.
  19. Well, Eva, that is a point of view! Do you ever consider the point of view of these students?
  20. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter

    if you consider the point of view of the criminals who mug you and beat you up 'for kicks';
    or the burglars who trash your house and take irreplacable items of massive sentimental value....
    (or anyone who commits a crime against you)

    then you are a bigger, more forgiving person than I am.

    Remember, Eva is specifically talking about *crimes*, like assault. Or don't they count when they occur in school?

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