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Incidents that didn?t result in a permanent exclusion

Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by oldandrew, Jan 31, 2007.

  1. Thank you for your lively responses to my comments. I haven't the time to answer them all. Yes, I am SMT. How did I become SMT? By being an ordinary teacher first! May I recommend that some of you consider a work experience placement as SMT and see how you get on!
  2. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter

    jamie.edward.saunder ,

    do you see being abused, assaulted, insulted and ridiculed by pupils as something teachers have to accept as part of the job as an 'ordinary teacher'?

  3. He's got to be a wind-up..........

    How patronising???
    So, actually, he probably is SMT.
    pepper5 likes this.
  4. No, I don't believe that it is part of a teacher's job to be abused, assaulted, insulted and ridiculed. Nor do I believe that children should learn those behaviours from adults. But they get this anger from somewhere! I suggest that you do some research. Democratic schools are happier, more productive and more collaborative and have less of the bad behaviour you are rightly seeking quash. My comments are not a wind up. I am trying to empower people stop bad behaviour and to create happier, more productive schools. I agree that I can be patronising but some of the comments about SMT in general and me in particular from people seeing things in black and white really should not go unchallenged.
  5. hear hear garyconyers!

    maybe jamie.edward.saunder would like to see the scar my baby niece has due to thuggish behaviour? or my own physical scars which, thanks to ineffectual smt, went completely unpunished?

    perhapsjamie.edward. saunder would like to spend a little time as an 'ordinary teacher' and spend a day being physically, emotionally, and in some cases sexually assaulted?
    pepper5 likes this.
  6. already done that!
    pepper5 likes this.
  7. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter


    I've tried involving pupils in their education in the past. With some it can have positive effects; with many it becomes a case of, 'give them a mm they'll take a mile'.

    Doesn't always work, mate, not with some pupils we have to deal with.
    pepper5 likes this.
  8. then you will understand why we teachers get so frustrated and stressed when we don't get support from smt for what is often criminal behaviour- that is the point we are trying to make.

    i agree democratic schools may improve behaviour, but it can be very difficult to create the atmosphere you describe when children's outrageous behaviour is not challenged either at home or in school. therein lies the problem, and unless such behaviour is successfully challenged, the situation will continue to deteriorate. where the class teacher is undermined by smt as described in this thread, there is not going to be the democracy that you describe, but merely anarchy, as children see their bad behaviour being, in their eyes, validated and endorsed by smt. it is not smt in general with whom posters on this thread have grievance, but those smt's where there is not the support and backup we have a right to expect when we are faced with extreme behaviour.

    where a situation arises where teachers are reprimanded for, quite rightly, calling the police for out of school assaults there is clearly a breakdown in how the system should work, and this is what ordinary teachers are so outraged about, not the existence of smt.
    pepper5 likes this.
  9. What you say does not surprise me. It is worth it for those who will benefit. I think the reason why these strategies don't always work is that SMT are luke warm about them. They see the logic in what people like me say but then decide to make tough sounding and counter-productive noises to parents, governors and the type of people who criticise me on this site. Have courage and perseverance. If everyone is committed including the Head and SMT you will win through!
  10. Democratic schools isolate extreme behaviour. Even in the most challenging of schools I am hearing about have a minority of disruptive students. Democracy empowers the majority of students (and their parents and teachers) to do their job. Where SMT refuse to support their staff over extreme incidents it is because they seek to preserve their power over their colleagues. In democratic schools, SMT have no need to support staff over extreme incidents because the whole school community is working against them.
  11. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter

    For example : (Copied from the view on tackling behaviour problems thread):

    24 | Posted by: jamie.edward.saunder at 16 Feb 2007 19:09

    I don't really agree with either approach. Some suggestions!
    1. Try to sharpen up on preparation. Make lessons as interesting as possible. Cater for all methods of learning.

    2. Listen to students. Stimulate them to think about what teaching approaches best work for them.

    3. Keep calm whatever the pressure.

    4. Include students and parents in decision making as much as possible. Giving students more responsibility makes them more responsible.

    5. Use positive reinforcement but also include opportunities for participation. Students find this motivating.

    6. Be very focused on teaching and learning. Treat the secondary issues as seondary issues.

    7. Listen to your colleagues. Work closely as a team. Share strategies and resources.

    8. Make the school a welcoming environment to parents.

    I had an awful class of lower-ability year 10s one year. Their behaviour was awful throughout the school. They had basically given up on education, didn't want to be their, couldn't see the point whatever any teacher did. They were rude and obnoxious to everyone, whether inside or outside school.

    No matter what I did (games, puzzles, making things, pupil exposition, group work) it was met with at best unconcerned shrugs and ignorance, more usually
    "this is ****/ whatterwe doin' this for/ what's the point". I asked how they's like to learn, what could we do to make things better, they said "dunno, more fun lessons". When I asked for specifics they didn't know. Oh, despite my best efforts any equipment given out to enhance learning quickly turned into projectiles, or was broken.

    See 1. above. When they don't give you a chance there's nothing even an excellent teacher can do with such a class.

    Have you ever encountered such children jamie?
  12. i can't speak for jamie, but i have- i don't know how to get through to these children either. if they've already given up and are not even prepared to give you a chance then you've no hope. one teacher can't fix so many years of disaffection in one year. it's sad, but it's true. i had a class who really didn't see the point in what they were (not)learning. i couldn't do anything with them because they didn't wantto even try. they weren't evil children, they werereally quite friendly outside school but did not want to learn, and so played up- for everyone, not just me.
    pepper5 likes this.
  13. Yes, I have encountered such children. Yes, I understand your frustration. The problem you have, I think, is that few of your colleagues (and SMT in particular) are committed to what you are seeking to achieve. You have my sympathy.
    pepper5 likes this.
  14. maybe somebody should tell ofsted this- sometimes i wonder whether they actually understand what goes on in some classes and schools. they seem not to appreciate that behaviour is not always caused by individual teachers but is a result of many factors, most of which are beyond the class teacher's control. it's a simple fact that some children simply no longer care. it's also unfortunate that the more extreme behaviour is not being sanctioned- not always smt's fault, the govt seem not to care that by forcing us to keep children in class who are abusive and violent, we are actually making things worse for those students who do care- their education suffers and their safety too- that's the thing that worries me most.
    pepper5 likes this.
  15. He used the word "empower" and is extremely patronising so he's definitely SMT.
    pepper5 likes this.
  16. What annoys me is the inconsistency shown....

    Send a generally good / hard working child home for wearing trainers, but give another child time with their mentor for kicking off and acting violently...

    I actually think lots of SMT are scared of certain children so they seek an easy way out...

    And of course it is always, always the teachers fault...

    "Perhaps he wouldn't have thrown the chair if the work was... "

    "Well it was the other child's fault for bringing money to school it is bound to get stolen."

    "You shouldn't have confronted him" Even though he was terrorising others...

    or after seeing another child get pushed down a whole flight of stairs:

    "Well he was wound up and says the other child was in his way and there are problems at home..."

    As soon as we start to make excuses for bad behaviour and offer to many choices we are entering a very slippery path to chaos!!
    pepper5 likes this.
  17. It is true that SMT are scared of certain children, parents, members of staff and the media. It is their job not be under the thumb of these people. To allow oneself to be controlled in this way is completely contrary to the democratic principles I uphold. Through this thread I am seeking encourage teachers to look to their many allies rather than fear a bullying few.
  18. when push comes to shove, we cannot force a child to do anything- we are not allowed to touch them, and when we have problems, as is inevitable with certain children, if there is no backup, no communication between home, teacher and smt then we have already lost the game. if a child knows there are no negative consequences for their behaviour, it is only natural that the kid will choose to do whatever they please. children are not born knowing what is acceptable and what is not, but learn this. if there are no perceived sanctions for bad behaviour, or where it is seen to be rewarded, then the problem will only escalate.

    i work in the independent sector now, as a direct result of horrendous behaviour not only from children but also their parents and smt at the school. my current school has it's fair share of difficult children, but they don't generally misbehave because they know that the school will jump on them and that their parents will also do so when they get home- all behaviour details and dt's etc are e-mailed home to their parents that day- there is no escape. consequently, the children choose to behave properly as they are being taught.

    i agree fully with stan- there is incosistency and there are often too many excuses made for the child choosing to misbehave. ultimately, the child is responsible for themselves, and their own behaviour. the older they are, the more evident that is.
  19. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter

    "The problem you have, I think, is that few of your colleagues (and SMT in particular) are committed to what you are seeking to achieve."


    The problem is that you can't get through to these children - they won't let you.
  20. OMG some of these incidents are quite incredible. I knew it went on in a school I taught in, but sooo many!!!

    "As teachers I think we need to have the humility to accept that we still have much to learn about inclusion strategies."

    As a member of SMT I think you need to have the humility to accept that you still have much to learn about inclusion stragegies.

    They, quite often, don't work, and result in unacceptable behaviour from students who behave in the way they do because they can.

    As a member of SMT, if staff came to you with some of the incidents mentioned on this thread, I would hope you would wipe the floor with whatever child and encourage, nay fight for, long term or permanent exclusions that would give the message to the entire community that it is not to be tolerated, that your staff are of the utmost importance to you, and I hope you would certainly not start bleating about how teachers need to start having more humility.

    Someone made a fabulous point on another thread about how gangs are on the rise because they do not tolerate deviating from whatever 'code' it is they live by. Students want structure. They want boundaries. They want to feel safe that when they go over a boundary, it does, without fail, result in a consequence they find unappealing. When students are part of a school that allows some of these incidents on this thread to take place without severe consequences, they not only feel insecure, they also do not feel any kind of belonging whatsoever. They do not feel they belong to a community they can respect.

    Also, while I am here ;-) ... one of the most insidious diseases the teaching profession has ever faced is that of inconsistency. Headteachers and SMT are shockingly inconsistent in their application of the boundaries. A boy in my school punched a teacher and was in school the next day. Another boy got 45 days for telling SMT to **** off. The kids know it too. They used to tell me it was ridiculous!


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