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i) Is anti-semitic a synonym for anti-zionist in contemporary Britain?

Discussion in 'Personal' started by BigFrankEM, Nov 26, 2019.

  1. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    ii) Is it in the interest of Zionists to confuse these 2 concepts in Britain, and everywhere else, yesterday, today and tomorrow?

    iii) Is Jeremy a major liability for (nu)Labour per se?
  2. Corvuscorax

    Corvuscorax Star commenter

    No, they are not synonyms, yes it is in the interests of zionists to conflate the two, and yes, Jeremy is a major liability , but even he has not been working for the Tories as hard as Dianne Abbot
    BigFrankEM likes this.
  3. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Zionism... the belief Jews have the right of self-determination.

    Isn't it odd how the only group criticised for wanting a nation of their own are the Jews?

    Scots Nats? Nope... Kurds? Nope... Uighur Muslims? Nope..

    Don't see many in Labour criticising the founding principles of Pakistan [a state set up specifically for Indian Muslims - exactly the same logic... also saw ethnic cleansing at its creation]

    Just the Jews... odd...
  4. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    iv) Is Jeremy anti-semitic (as opposed to anti-zionist) ?
  5. Corvuscorax

    Corvuscorax Star commenter

  6. Corvuscorax

    Corvuscorax Star commenter

  7. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    By himself, he's only a serious drawback, but the combination of Corbyn, Mcdonnell, Abbott and a manifesto promising profligate spending at a time when the party is already trailing badly in the polls is likely to wreck Labour's chances.
    Laphroig and Corvuscorax like this.
  8. Skeoch

    Skeoch Lead commenter

    "A senior source" is quoted in the Times today as saying Labour might ditch Corbyn if it were the price of a coalition government. Note that the LibDems have said they won't go into coalition with Corbyn.....

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    I think the Turks in particular DO criticise the Kurds for wanting their own state. I think most people support the whole idea of the Jews having a homeland of their own, and wish it was somewhere less incendiary than Palestine (eg Oklahoma Territory or Buganda). However, it is where it is, and it is what we have to work with. We could wish that Israel was not a state brought into being by terrorism (blowing up a hotel, the world's first suicide truck bombing, the kidnap and murder of British soldiers and the booby-trapping of their bodies, the assassination of the UN commissioner) and ethnic cleansing, but there it is. We could wish that Israel had not made its terrorist leaders its Prime Ministers, nor glorified its terrorists with postage stamps and medals, but they did. We could wish that the early Zionists' left-wing ideals of kibbutz-farming and sharing the land had not been transformed into racial and religious exclusivity and demonisation of their neighbours. We could wish that the state of Israel would stop encroaching upon its neighbours lands and persecuting Palestinians, to the detriment of its good name, and to the fury of those Israelis who believe in human rights and living in harmony with those whose land they have taken.

    It is a great shame that Evangelicals support Israel, not for the Jews themselves, about whom they couldn't give a 5h!t and believe they will all be consigned to Hell as unbelievers, but because of their own quite peculiar beliefs about the Rapture based on the Book of Revelation.

    So is antizionism the same as anti-semitism? No it is not. Antizionism denies, not the right of Jews to a homeland or state, but their right to one built on the land stolen from another people who were entirely innocent. Anti-Semitism is hatred of the Jews because of who they are (or allegedly are) and is a pernicious and dangerous set of ideas.
  10. MAGAorMIGA

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    To those who accuse Corbyn of anti-Semitism. "To accuse Jeremy Corbyn of anti-Semitism is idiotic."
  11. burajda

    burajda Star commenter

    It was Ottoman land, then the British acquired it from the Ottomans and agreed to a Jewish homeland , then they handed it over to the UN to deal with. No-one stole the land, the plan for the division of British Palestine into Jewish and Arab parts was agreed by the UN.
  12. MAGAorMIGA

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    "The British acquired it from the Ottomans" is doing a fantastic amount of heavy lifting here. The Ottomans had destroyed an Arab Revolt against their rule in Palestine in the 1840s, and ruled with an iron fist. During World War One, the Arabs lent their support to the British in the expectation of an independent Arab state being created after the war, of which Palestine would be a part. The British reneged on their agreement and took Palestine, Transjordan and Iraq as "Mandates". The Palestine Mandate, it was quickly made clear would be for creating the "Jewish national home" promised in the Balfour Declaration. The promise contained within that document to respect the rights of the native Arab population was quietly ignored.
  13. xmal

    xmal Occasional commenter

  14. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    Is that an accurate comparison?

    On 2 criteria:

    Will the SNP, if successful, occupy land of some inhabitants of Scotland and gift them to families from elsewhere in Scotland?

    ii) Will they also invite "Scots families" from Toronto, Dunedin and Nova Scotia to return and share the spoils?
    Undoubtedly the partition of the Indian sub-continent was a Labour government decision.

    Ditto: the creation of the State of Israel was a Labour decision; though they don't seem to get much current credit (sic) for it.

    Both decided by the much vaunted post war Labour government. Under Clem Attlee, the nearest thing in Transport House to a secular saint. George Orwell excepted. Obviously.

    Although the Labour leader, Clement Attlee, was personally anti-Zionist, believing that Jewish nationalism was irrational and romantic, he publicly endorsed Labour’s pro-Zionist policy in 1945 (Gorny, 1983, pp. 131, 206–7). Right-wing members of the leadership such as Hugh Dalton and Herbert Morrison were pro-Zionist. Even Bevin backed Zionist goals during the war.

    The Labour left’s identification with internationalism had previously made it sceptical about Zionism. Non-Zionist Jews such as Lucjan Blit, who represented the Bund in London, influenced this faction. The Bund was a Marxist and anti-Zionist party that believed that the Jewish problem could be solved without resorting to a territorial solution (Alderman, 1983, p. 53).

    Yet Arthur Creech Jones, Aneurin Bevan and Richard Crossman strongly supported Jewish nationalist aims. The radical left also favoured the establishment of a Jewish state. The leader of the Socialist League, Stafford Cripps, welcomed Jewish developments in Palestine as a just response to Germany’s persecution of the Jews (Gorny, 1983, pp. 152–3).

    Fenner Brockway and most of the Independent Labour Party defended Zionist goals (ibid., pp. 185–7). Labour Women also supported the construction of a Jewish national home in Palestine.

  15. schoolsout4summer

    schoolsout4summer Star commenter

    Have you wondered why The Chief Rabbi has started his anti- Semite accusations towards Jeremy Corbyn? Three minutes to enlighten yourself:
  16. schoolsout4summer

    schoolsout4summer Star commenter

    Chief Rabbi Mirvis posed this on Facebook recently:
    “I am delighted to congratulate Boris Johnson, a longstanding friend and champion of the Jewish community, on becoming the next leader of the Conservative Party and our next Prime Minister. As he accepts upon himself the mantle of responsibility to lead our nation, may he be blessed with the wisdom to successfully navigate the political uncertainties we face and bring healing and prosperity to our great country.”

  17. Jude Fawley

    Jude Fawley Star commenter

    Our whippet needs walking and I've got to dust me flat cap. I haven't got time to be going to night school to learn about all these fancy things like BAME and woke and if I want me tackle chopped off.

    There just isn't enough hours in the day after we get off from factory.
  18. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    No, but I did wonder why Archbishop Justin Welby supported him.
  19. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    Whilst the Corbyn/ Zionism/ Anti-semitism issue is, I believe, a little bit complicated, to answer the above is, for me at least, a no-brainer:

    "Because he is a politically correct opportunist" is my reluctant but firm reply.
    monicabilongame likes this.
  20. vannie

    vannie Star commenter

    Zionism - the belief that the state of Israel has an inalienable right to the land of Palestine. Criticism of the state of Israel has become 'anti - semitic'. I don't believe that it is.

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